Canada to Spend $5.0Bil on AEW Aircraft

[lenaitch]

getting rid of the railhead

How many bases (at least those that would actually need it) are served by rail.

 

[dapaterson]

How many bases (at least those that would actually need it) are served by rail.

Depot in Montreal.

 

[FJAG]

Depot in Montreal.

Halifax has them nearby.

 

[MJP]

Depot in Montreal.

I might be misunderstanding but their is no railhead at the depot/base. There is a railhead super close for the port that is utilized at times but nothing for depot pay off the base.

Halifax has them nearby.

Edmonton has a rail head close to the base as well. I get folks are chuffed it isn't on base but for the amount we use rail, driving a short distance isn't a huge issue.

 

[dapaterson]

I might be misunderstanding but their is no railhead at the depot/base. There is a railhead super close for the port that is utilized at times but nothing for depot pay off the base.

Look at the intersection of Souligny and Haig, then follow the rail. There is railhead inside the base.

(Imagine 25 years ago, suggesting that any person could get satellite imagery!)

 

[Cloud Cover]

Look at the intersection of Souligny and Haig, then follow the rail. There is railhead inside the base.

(Imagine 25 years ago, suggesting that any person could get satellite imagery!)

It’s incredible how far along and how quickly satellite imagery and satellite data has proliferated- for free.

I did a licensing agreement with Keyhole in 2002 for accessing their service to use on a proprietary mobile device* (a device that was still on the whiteboard!) The Kehole viewer service was available to the public even then. [I mean Keyhole the company, not Keyhole satellites operated by the US government]. 2 years later that company was swallowed by Google and became Google Earth.

* the term SmartPhone had not yet been adopted.

 

[FJAG]

The air photo view with Google Earth is quite crappy but it looks like there is still a spur going into Shilo.

 

[Cloud Cover]

 

[brihard]

Maybe the time has come to turn Whitehorse into a permanent RCAF base.....

• a squadron of helo's - combined SAR and Transport
• 1/2 squadron to full squadron of new F35's
• 3 of the potentially 6 yet to be purchase E-7's.
• 1 to 2 Polaris or replacements

I'm sure it would do wonders for retention as well. a town of 28,000 (21,000 in the urban area)

What's the flight time from Edmonton to Whitehorse? Two and a half hours?

Except amenities and opportunities don't work on population percentages, they work on raw numbers. A city of 230K has more opportunities and amenities than a city of 25K.

Most of the Canadian population lives between Sarnia and Quebec City. An area that has a population density that is close to what much of America has. That means the average Canadian doesn't live in a city of 25K in the middle of nowhere, regardless of landmass.

If the CAF wants to put a full base up there, the bonus we pay will need to be large, meaning less money for other things like jets, ships, artillery, etc...

I missed this earlier in the week due to some stuff I had going on.

I can’t speak to the operational wisdom of putting particular assets in particular places. I will say that I lived in Whitehorse for three years, and it’s an absolute gem of a place. It punches well above its weight for quality of life an amenities. As a territorial capital it gets a ton of federal money flowing in. The economy is strong, there’s quite a bit of employment opportunity for spouses - including federal public service - there are great recreational facilities… If you’re outdoorsy (I personally am not) it’s an absolute dream for hunting, fishing, camping etc.

The schools are pretty decent, the local college is pretty good and is offering some u I resort courses now. The hospital is pretty decent and does fantastic maternity care. Travel out is easy; you’re less than two and a half hours gate to get to Vancouver with three or four flights a day between Mapleflot and Air North. AN also does flights on a Calgary Edmonton Whitehorse loop, the population is surprisingly diverse, there’s a decent selection of stores and restaurants, and it’s on the highway network so it’s not super isolated.

Cost of living is relatively high, but federal IPGHD accounts for that. Housing would be the biggest challenge. Funny enough there was a base there before, and a really recognizable old CAF shacks is now a notoriously shitty apartment building called “the barracks”.

I enjoyed my time there and if life were on a different path I’d go there again. I think CAF members hypothetically posted there would find themselves surprisingly in love with the place.

I don’t know if the airport itself with only the option of a single axis runway would work, but Air North flies 737s in and out several times a day, so there’s that. The biggest challenge might be trying to find enough of a footprint on the airport plateau for facilities. But 3x E-7s could probably be accommodated. I’m assuming if we get AEW, likely we’ll fly one or two out of Europe to contribute to NATO there.

 

[Fabius]

I might be misunderstanding but their is no railhead at the depot/base. There is a railhead super close for the port that is utilized at times but nothing for depot pay off the base.




Edmonton has a rail head close to the base as well. I get folks are chuffed it isn't on base but for the amount we use rail, driving a short distance isn't a huge issue.

What are we defining as close to Edmonton, Wainwright?

Wainwright has about 1000m of track and two ramps. In comparison Fort Johnson in the US has 3000m with 6 ramps. Both are used/were used to load a CMBG/BCT. One was highly efficient, one was not.

If all your bases have integral airfields and railheads, positioning force’s becomes fairly simple if not easy. If you don’t it becomes much harder.

 

[Halifax Tar]

How many bases (at least those that would actually need it) are served by rail.

Doesn't Petawawa have a rail head ? I seem to remember us loading on the Bde's vehicles there before heading to Ft Irwin.

 

[Rudburg]

Doesn't Petawawa have a rail head ? I seem to remember us loading on the Bde's vehicles there before heading to Ft Irwin.

The CPR line that ran through the base was shut down in 2011: Notices of rail line discontinuance | Canadian Transportation Agency

Apparently, DND wasn't concerned about the loss of rail access..."the Department of National Defence was consulted about the value of the line to CFB Petawawa, and DND advised that it had alternate transportation sources and did not require the line." Death knell for Ottawa Valley rail line

 

[MJP]

Look at the intersection of Souligny and Haig, then follow the rail. There is railhead inside the base.

(Imagine 25 years ago, suggesting that any person could get satellite imagery!)

Ha and thanks. That is perfect for AEFC and 3 CSU as needed as the depot doesn't hold vehs. In any case I stand corrected.

What are we defining as close to Edmonton, Wainwright?

Wainwright has about 1000m of track and two ramps. In comparison Fort Johnson in the US has 3000m with 6 ramps. Both are used/were used to load a CMBG/BCT. One was highly efficient, one was not.

If all your bases have integral airfields and railheads, positioning force’s becomes fairly simple if not easy. If you don’t it becomes much harder.

Both CP & CN have railyards in Edmonton. We don't do it often but we definitely don't drive to Wx

CN 53.57757619290009, -113.32779778189634

CP 53.47379060593238, -113.49018383455993

There are other spurs as well that are avail to utilize. I will also say finding a spur relatively close to any base isn't hard (quality as you point out is another issue) and while I agree on your comment about integral being good, for the CAF that ship has sailed (railed has been spiked a better analogy?).

 

[KevinB]

Imagine a base that doesn’t have multiple railheads and airheads…

Canada I cry for you.

 

[dimsum]

Imagine a base that doesn’t have multiple railheads and airheads…

Canada I cry for you.

I’m surprised that you’re surprised.

(Yes I know that you’re not surprised)

Again, one of the larger US bases (e.g. Fort Cavazos) is essentially half of the entire CAF personnel.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Just a bit of trivia: back in the (not so) good old days on larger bases what is now Base Supply was a RCOC unit called a (Number) COR: Camp Ordnance Railhead.

 

[Fabius]

Ha and thanks. That is perfect for AEFC and 3 CSU as needed as the depot doesn't hold vehs. In any case I stand corrected.

Both CP & CN have railyards in Edmonton. We don't do it often but we definitely don't drive to Wx

CN 53.57757619290009, -113.32779778189634

CP 53.47379060593238, -113.49018383455993

There are other spurs as well that are avail to utilize. I will also say finding a spur relatively close to any base isn't hard (quality as you point out is another issue) and while I agree on your comment about integral being good, for the CAF that ship has sailed (railed has been spiked a better analogy?).

I would have thought the same prior to a 3rd Division Readiness Exercise several years back that determined that the only way we can load on rail is to road move to Wx.
I was skeptical and to be honest remain so as you rightly point out Edmonton has sites, but the G4 Tn shops of the time were adamant that Edmonton was not feasible and they had apparently spoke with the rail lines as well.

Edited: I just looked at the two Edmonton yards via google maps. The first has no loading ramps, they off load civilian vehicles from the car carrier train cars via what appears to be a mobile ramp. Likely not suitable for AFVs. The second yard appears to be only sea cans.
Neither looks anything like the same sat imagery of the rail facility in either Wx or the US bases. Not saying the civ facilities can’t work but I don’t think they would be able to do it easily or smoothly.

 

[AmmoTech90]

CFAD Dundurn had rail, spent 3 months unloading box cars in 91. CFAD Angus also had rail, and a shunting engine with a CFR plate. That was out of use by 91.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Imagine a base that doesn’t have multiple railheads and airheads…

Canada I cry for you.

Rocky Point, a major ammo facility with only a small dock and road through town. On the brightside there is room for another dozen PMQ's

 

[dapaterson]

Rocky Point, a major ammo facility with only a small dock and road through town. On the brightside there is room for another dozen PMQ's

Ammunition storage and living accommodations do not mix well.