CAF Specialist Pay [Spec Pay]- All Trades [MERGED]

[old medic]

  In the modern battlefield the Med Techs must be up on both their trauma skills and soldiering.  Although PCP training is fine for in Garrison duties it does not prepare the Med Techs for their true calling in battle. Civilian protocols are tossed out the window when you are dealing with multiple wounded while being fired upon by the enemy. Med Techs must all have ATLS as well as regular tactical casualty care training. If they emphasize trauma training and increased soldiering skills then they would definitely deserve spec pay.
  I understand that by taking civilian paramedic courses makes it easier to compare jobs but there is no comparison. Med Techs are soldiers first and medical specialists second. I say stop trying to civilianize the Med Tech trade. The quest for civilian equivilancy could very well lead to Med Techs being replaced by soldiers with advanced medical skills such as ATLS and TCCC.
  Don't get me wrong, I still believe Med Techs are extremely important. But with increased trauma skills and soldiering they will become invaluable assets and thus desrving of a higher payscale.

I couldn't disagree more. Without proper training, there would be no Med Tech. We'd still be using Cas Aids.
Nor would there be any thought of Spec. Pay, as we would be operating at a first aid level.

You seem to be advocating that PCP skills are no good, and first aid is only good for the battle field.

I don't understand how you can ask for civilian equivelent spec pay, then say Med Techs should be dumbed down
and not get spec pay.

If tactical training actually qualified someone for Spec pay, then everyone would get it.

 

[Bigmac]

    Lots of info Old Medic. Since you are obviously well versed on PCP etc, what direction do you see the Med Tech trade going in the future?? Do you agree that Med Techs need more tactical based training on a regular basis?

 

[old medic]

Everyone in the the army needs tactical training. Medics like everyone else.

However, Just like you wouldn't want an X-Ray tech or Dental tech without proper training,
you wouldn't want a Med Tech performing controlled medical acts on you with them being
properly trained, delegated and accountable.  Doctors, Nurses, Pharmacists and Dentists must
be properly trained, so too must Medics. Quality of care would be out the window otherwise.

MP's get spec pay because they are doing a job similar to their civilian counterparts. i.e. Police work.
The argument for Medics getting spec pay has to come from performing the same skills as other
pre-hospital care providers. CMA accreditation and meeting the National Occupational Competency
Profile is the only argument possible for spec pay.

 

[Bigmac]

  I am not arguing the importance of increased medical skills for the trade. I believe the trade is getting away from the military portion of it's training. For all the money being spent on PCP and bridging I sure hope there is a clear direction for the trade. To me the Med Tech trade is still unsure what standard of training it should follow. Civilian qualifications are great but the Med Techs should also be experts in tactical trauma care.

 

[medicineman]

This argument has been going on since I joined the Reg Force 18 something years ago, was going on prior to that and has been the entire time I've been in.  It was a miracle that PA's managed to get it - and despite all the arguing, they were the only ones that did get it (except 6A PMed Sgts and above). 

On a personal level, I find it difficult to believe that a person who fixes computers and electronics gets specialist pay, but if they screw something up, e-mail is down for a bit and we actually have to get off our butts and got talk to someone or pick up a phone.  I screw up, I can kill someone or worse, but that' s pretty much ok I guess (I know it's a bit simplistic, but not far off the mark).

I've taken ATLS, have taught TCCC and believe me there is no comparison.  One is medicine in fairly well controlled setting and the other is the opposite.  I found I didn't get alot of extra tools in my tool kit out of ATLS for combat use - other than a few novel ways of getting IV fluid into people and putting in chest tubes (which I won't be doing while under fire - somewhere safer) and surgical airways - the anaesthetist basically didn't even let us think about trying anything useful like RSI or even difficult intubations, as he felt only the gas passers should be doing that.  It did give me some extra assessment tools, but again, alot still related to me being in a controlled sitution with at least a rudiment of "basic" things like X-Ray and that sort of thing.  As far as point of injury treatment and assessment, again nothing I learned in the hospital would change how I deal with someone under fire.  If you want something like ATLS for combat, you need to take the OEMS course offered to special ops guys which is ATLS from Hell - it's designed for a more austere environment and makes people think on their toes a little more (oems.org).

Medics are now required, regardless of environment, to do SQ - which is a good step in the right direction.  Now they need to add more field medical techniques training at the school - TCCC as a start, among other things.

This argument is going to go on for ever and a day about our pay scale as Med Techs - fact is Treasury Board doesn't think that medics should be considered a specialist pay MOC.  It could be as simple as a bad presentation when it's taken up or that, as far as skills and knowledge requirements brought to the table, we are on par with our bretheren in the combat arms - which is exactly how it was explained to me as the explanation as to why medics aren't a specialist trade.

Rambling ends ... for now.

MM

 

[Armymedic]

Should Med Techs get Spec pay?

From QL 5 Med Tech (Cpl rank) and up, absolutely.

What do we have to do to get it? Well that is quite a long story, but it is being worked on. Med Techs were turned down for spec pay a couple yrs ago, and the recommendations for the next application are being implemented so that future applications will hopefully be successful.

If you are doing a comparison of a civ paramedic with a military med tech, remember PCP is one of the BASIC trade qualifications for a med tech. Our job is much more medicine then the monkey medicine prehospital skills entail.

 

[xo31@711ret]

Just from an 'old' 6A med "tech" who recently retired after 24+ years service ( first 6 infantry, last 18 med a). We've been hearing since the 80's that med A's / techs were getting spec pay & it was always 'just around the corner'; finally it came (for 6B's / WO's; old and new). I hope it happens for the rest, especially for those just entering the trade - but my cynical side can't see it happening soon ( I truly hope that I'm wrong). For those of us a bit 'long in the tooth', don't you find it ironic that when we were young cpls working for example, as company med A's that (in the field) we: diagnosed; treated injuries; prescribed 'basic' meds (eg, antibiotics / T1's & 2's); sutured (minor injuries); IVed when necessary; given the responsibility to set up / run / triage a CCP (casualty collection point), etc, etc. But as time went by / policies changed: for example, as a SNR NCO in charge of a MIR or TMT room, and supervising anywhere from 3 to 20 junior pers, that clinically we basically screen only and make recommendations before seeking further clarification (eg from a MO). Basically from a clinical point of view, we were able to do more as a young jnr med a, than could as a SNR NCO med tech due to policies. I realize that in the long run it probably is for the better, but sometimes I feel that something was lost on the way during the transitional period of 'mil trade to-equal-civ-counterpart.
Just my 2 cents

-gerry

 

[Armymedic]

And thanks to that lack of universal standards previously, we now have the restrictions on what we can do today.

Now we write standardized tests to pass prior giving out drugs, and have a maintenance of compentancy to maintain our skills.

(PS-the only thing a properly trained Coy medic can't do today is Rx antibiotics.)

 

[medicineman]

I always used to laugh at nurses who told me I couldn't do something because I didn't have a license - I promptly told them what I was doing was a delegated medical act, which, being under a physician's license, doesn't actually require one of me.  I'd then remind them that some of the things they were "licensed" to do in Ontario for instance, were in fact delegated MEDICAL acts as well - IV's, well any kind of injection actually (according to the Ontario College of Physicians and Surgeons), suturing and so on.  One of our civvy docs in Kingston was quite adamant about the delegation - he carried around a copy of what a physician was in fact allowed to delegate and how to do it as well.  The PCRI people didn't like him much.  This is what happens when people start letting nurses rule the roost  :  >.

From my not so schizo side, I have a sneaking suspicion that unless we hire a professional seller to present this to the TB, our junior techs are once again going to lose out on something we all know they deserve - recognition for what they do and how they do it.

MM

 

[DartmouthDave]

Hello,

Civilian PCP pay isn't that great in general. According to the DND homepage regular force NCM start at 30K and reach 50K in 5 years.  Very few PCP make much more than 30K let alone 50K.  I figure 50K a year is around $25hr or so civilian side.  Find a PCP job that pay this, good luck.  A friend of mine with 5 years  as an ACP for a large Alberta city service made 55k.  (7 years experience....2 years as aPCP and 5 as an ACP)

ACP pay is an other matter.  The same for CCP pay.  I don't think one could argue that a jr Med-A has the same training and skill that these individuals possess.  However, throw in the other skills a med-a must know  (i.e. field craft, comms equipment, small arms, ect....) and I feel this would support the need for specialist pay.

Alas, soon it will only be the CBT arms that will not get specialist pay

As for the ugly 'I have a license' argument......

For the CF license for a med-a isn't required.  The CF has mean to address poor patient care that a civilian service doesn't.  A licence allows a mean of dealing with patient care issues outside of the union and employer.  No licence...can't work....dosen't matter what the union says.

David

 

[old medic]

A full time PCP in Ontario starts at around 61K. That is based on 12 hour shifts full time at 28 dollars per hour.
28 / hour is fairly low, a large number of Ontario PCP's are in the 30.00 dollar range, and next year the pay rate
in Durham Region for a PCP will be $35.30.  (77000.00 / year)
Source: http://www.ottawaparamedics.ca/misc/2005-07-05_PCPwages.pdf

I would strongly advocate spec pay at the QL3 level.  I believe It would greatly help retension.

 

[Armymedic]

I would strongly advocate spec pay at the QL3 level.  I believe It would greatly help retension.

Can't happen. The CF does not all anyone to get spec pay until you are a Cpl.

 

[old medic]

Gotcha. Still problematic however if we loose good people.

 

[Donut]

David, funny you should mention pay.

I was in Nova Scotia the other week, and I was genuinely shocked by how little PCP's make there; I was really shocked to discover that I, as a junior part-time PCP, am making more then a NS ACP per hour.  Several services in Ontario make more then that, too.

Now, factor in cost of living and all that...but most BC Paramedics don't live in Vancouver, which is where everyone bases their cost of living estimates on.  

In BC it's kind of like the regs, in that you'll live in some places where it's dirt cheap, and others that are grotesquely overpriced; the pay will stay the same, and you hope to come out ahead at the end of the day.  Lots of us also commute rediculous distances to our stations.  I consider myself lucky in that I'm only about 75 minutes from my station (Whistler) to home (North Vancouver).

Interestingly, dispatchers here start at the ALS pay rate, about $75K.  

But I digress.

My CO took a report I wrote to 1HSG about HS recruiting, and one of my points is that we're not competitive, salary-wise, with our civi counterparts.  I find it really hard to attract PCP to join when we're offering them about 50% of a day's wage compared to the competition.  I won't comment on the average pay for PCP's nationally, but here we're behind the curve next to our contemporaries, and spec pay might go a little ways to address that.

I will wade in and comment that I find it curious that so many Med Techs have such a narrow view of EMS work, and consider their (the Military) "additional" skills so, well, additional.  I suspect it's based on what they see on their on-car sessions, the driver drives, so far as they see, and the attendant just attends.  

I suspect they're not realizing the 14 communities, 4 trauma centers, 7 other hospitals, MPDS codes, datahead operations, flight ops, SAR, HAZMAT, CBRN, Auto Ex, psych resources, corrections and detention facilities etc both those paramedics have to be intimately familiar with.  It's not just driving to the scene and taking sick people to the hospital (Taking really sick people to the hospital slightly faster) as much as we might joke it is.

Well, that's my digression for a Saturday night.

DF

 

[Armymedic]

As a Sgt 2, I earn roughly $56,600 a yr gross.

I do not know of too many paramedics outside of the big 3 provinces who make such after 10 yrs. But if you work in the Reg CF, the money you can make moonlighting (against regulations) is pretty good, apparently.

I will wade in and comment that I find it curious that so many Med Techs have such a narrow view of EMS work, and consider their (the Military) "additional" skills so, well, additional.  I suspect it's based on what they see on their on-car sessions, the driver drives, so far as they see, and the attendant just attends.  

I suspect they're not realizing the 14 communities, 4 trauma centers, 7 other hospitals, MPDS codes, datahead operations, flight ops, SAR, HAZMAT, CBRN, Auto Ex, psych resources, corrections and detention facilities etc both those paramedics have to be intimately familiar with.  It's not just driving to the scene and taking sick people to the hospital (Taking really sick people to the hospital slightly faster) as much as we might joke it is.

How many paramedics does it take to set up, administer, operate and support a walk in clinic? How many paramedics work on a Med/Surg floor or ICU? ...

Which in this discussion means that we should be paid better then our civilian counterparts

 

[DartmouthDave]

Hello,

EMS pay in Canada varies greatly with Ontario and BC and the top end for pay. Now, the USA has LOW pay for EMS!!  A friend of mine make hardly anything!!

The CF needs to raise pay in order to be competitive in Central and Western Canada.  Form my experience, it seems that a large percentage of the CF is from the East!!

I feel that an influx of civilian medical professionals could help the CFMS greatly.  For example, recruit experienced RNs (ICU,ER,ect) as direct entry officer rather than ROTP RN that graduate school and have limited experience.  The same for PCP and ACP. They could bring new ideas and more experience to the mix.

Now, I am not trying to say that the CF isn't capable of training and maintining highly skilled medical staff.  What I am saying is higher pay will bring in people that have many of the needed medical skills and only require military skills.  In effect, a new med-a could be ready to deploy faster than sending somebody through basic, then med-a training, and then time need to gain hands on clinical experience.

Thank you,
David

 

[Stokers_Rule]

Technically when Stokers get their Tech (QL5) course you change trades from 00121 to 00122 and when you get your Cert 3, 00122 to 00123.  It's like this for most trades I assume.  From what I understand if you change trades (IE remuster or OT) you were supposed to drop incentives.  Some clown somewhere applied it to us and here we are, trade changed on paper and that's all that matters to someone making policy in Ottawa.  Apparently there is a plan afoot to change the policy so it doesn't apply to trades that are simply progressing.  We'll see.

This is how I understand it, pretty sure I got what I was told right, but maybe not.

 

[PO2FinClk]

CBI 204.30 para 5
http://www.dnd.ca/dgcb/cbi/engraph/home_e.asp?sidesection=6&Section=204.30&sidecat=21&Chapter=204#204.30

(5) (Rate of pay – voluntary occupational transfer to a higher trade group) A non-commissioned member who voluntarily transfers after March 2002 to a military occupation in a higher trade group, under such conditions as established in orders or instructions issued by the Chief of the Defence Staff, shall be paid the rate of pay established for the pay increment for the member’s rank, pay level and new trade group that is nearest to, but not less than, the rate of pay the member was receiving on the day immediately prior to the member’s transfer, but not to exceed the rate of pay for the highest pay increment in the new rank and trade group.

Now although the situations listed above do not entail a change in MOC, rather only a change in qualification, the same principle is applied.

In short, NO IPC IS TAKEN AWAY, rather you are being bumped to the next nearest pay rate level as spec 1, which coincides with the IPC level.

These chnages in policy stem from the "Pay Simplification" conmpleted a few years ago. For those who wish to read through the shlew of explanations, I provide you with the links below:

Internet:
http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/cfpn/engraph/06_02_paystructure_e.asp

Intranet (DIN - Baseline):
http://admfincs.mil.ca/rpsr/sops/aideMemoireVer1_e.pdf

 

[Navy_Blue]

This is up to the treasury board now.

after you are in its question 2


http://admfincs.mil.ca/ccps/faq/intro_e.asp?sel=ccps&topic=1

We did not voluntarily change therefore if things go as planed we will maintain our incentives after our re muster.

My fingers are crossed...

 

[PMedMoe]

This came up today, more of a curiosity thing than a real-life story:

If someone is in a Spec pay trade, however for whatever reason, they are unable to do their job (but have not changed MOC), do they still get Spec pay?
For example, someone on SPHL, doing an admin job.