CAF Specialist Pay [Spec Pay]- All Trades [MERGED]

[glenndon]

I get the impression this policy is to. . .  help people decide NOT to OT.  That way, they train you as an infanteer/armoured/insert trade here, have you in the trade for 4+ years and you make it to MCpl or what not, then decide a career change is in order.  With losing money going into the new trade, more people will be likely NOT to OT, simply because they have a car payment, the wife doesn't want a drop in pay, whatever.  That way the military gets their full value training you in your original trade and keeping you in it as long as possible.

I want to OT to AES Op, and I already make Spec Pay in my current trade. . .  with this policy I will lose money for a few years, then take a few more to make what I make now again. . .  oh my wife will LOVE that. 

Glenn

 

[aesop081]

I get the impression this policy is to. . .  help people decide NOT to OT.  That way, they train you as an infanteer/armoured/insert trade here, have you in the trade for 4+ years and you make it to MCpl or what not, then decide a career change is in order.  With losing money going into the new trade, more people will be likely NOT to OT, simply because they have a car payment, the wife doesn't want a drop in pay, whatever.  That way the military gets their full value training you in your original trade and keeping you in it as long as possible.

I want to OT to AES Op, and I already make Spec Pay in my current trade. . .  with this policy I will lose money for a few years, then take a few more to make what I make now again. . .  oh my wife will LOVE that. 

Glenn

you are going to make a little less money for a whole of 5 months.,....yeah, there's something to bitch about !!  Ask yourself why you want to remuster, then shake your head....how much do you like your current job ?

 

[17thRecceSgt]

If its such an injustice, you could always stay in your old trade, you are obviously very happy there ?

You think this is a GOOD policy to have then do you??

Its not so much about me, really, its the other people that are getting screwed by this.

I do ask though, what do you think is GOOD about this policy?

And, I might add..you are already thru this, according to a post I read, and back at MCpl (4) with Spec 2 I am assuming.  Others like me are just getting in the breech.  So, with all my time in, I will get Cpl 4 Standard most likely...then...wait for POET, and ATIS Apprentice..should put me about the 19 years in mark.  And once I get qual'd for Spec 1 pay...I should go back to IPC Base.

Please, explain how this is something that should be viewed as positive AesOp.  Not starting a flame war here, seriously.  But tell me how that is the best thing to do for any service member. 

 

[navymich]

Don't get me wrong, I love money as much as the next person, but it seems that many people here are really really worried about what they aren't going to be making.  You're not losing any money, you're just not making what you hope for, as soon as you could have before.  Think back to when we didn't get a pay increase for a couple of years and liken it to that.  Or maybe you should be taking some of the "Advice for FNG's", especially the money advice from Paracowboy.

And if you're doing your current job for the money only, or you're CTing for the money only, then maybe you should rethink things.  And if it's not about the money only, then carry on, enjoy your job and accept the benefit of a pay increase when it comes.

Yes, I'm kind of saying the same things that aesop081 just posted, but I already had this typed up, so I'm posting it anyway.

 

[aesop081]

You think this is a GOOD policy to have then do you??

Its not so much about me, really, its the other people that are getting screwed by this.

I do ask though, what do you think is GOOD about this policy?

And, I might add..you are already thru this, according to a post I read, and back at MCpl (4) with Spec 2 I am assuning.  Others like me are just getting in the breech.  So, with all my time in, I will get Cpl 4 Standard most likely...then...wait for POET, and ATIS Apprentice..should put me about the 19 years in mark.  And once I get qual'd for Spec 1 pay...I should go back to IPC Base.

Please, explain how this is something that should be viewed as positive AesOp.  Not starting a flame war here, seriously.  But tell me how that is the best thing to do for any service member. 

Mud, my intention is not to flame or anything, and no i'm not a fan of the policy.  What i am getting at is are you remustering only for the money or because you need something new or unhappy in your current MOC.......if you are unhappy then whats it worth to you to leave ?

 

[glenndon]

you are going to make a little less money for a whole of 5 months.,....yeah, there's something to ***** about !!  Ask yourself why you want to remuster, then shake your head....how much do you like your current job ?

Hey I'm fine with it don't get me wrong, I really want to be an AES Op.  But if you read the CBI, I won't get back to Cpl Spec 3 (which is what I'd be if I OT next year) for 2 years AFTER I get my Spec Pay back again. . .  But like I said I really want to make the move so . . .  that's that.

Glenn

 

[17thRecceSgt]

Well I am not remustering really, I am CTing.  It's not the money.  I will make alittle more as a IPC 4 Cpl than I do as a Class B IPC 4 Sgt (and have been IPC 4 for awhile, with no room to move), but its the whole IPC thing.  I always thought the only way you could loose IPC was a Service Offense that entails DB time.  Why would you do something similar to Spec trades for successfully completing a higher level of ability?????????  It hasn't happened to me, might never happen to me (I already knew I would need to be QL5 in 226 for Spec Pay) BUT...for those that are being talked about on the thread, like stokers and the like...man, that is such a kick in the balls IMO.  

I am not going to a tech trade because of the money, cause really it is only $390ish a month.   Not that that is BAD, but its not the difference between say...Cpl and Capt's pay  

I just think the policy is insulting to the servicemember who was goes from IPC 4 to IPC Base and it seems like a crappy policy to save a few bucks.  Now, I realize there might be some "substantiation" to the policy, however, I have not seen it at all, and am making my opinions based on the (little and vague) information that I have.  

Also, I think the CF should be better at getting this info out, if there were people who were not aware of this policy for whatever reason and now are having $$ recovered...how do you think that person's morale and GAFF will be.  

Loyalty is a 2 way street, and its hard to get someone's GAFF into the green after some of this stuff happens, IMHO.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

Its not all about the $$.  My own personal motivation to the 226 trade is I love tech ( I work with it in my current Class B job and have 3 years of technical college).  I personally have the goal of being in this unit.  (The money is nice, the personal goal is worth more...)

http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/8wing/squadron/8accs_e.asp

My other 2 choices are not tech trades...AC Op and Traffic Tech.  But I like to fix stuff and the spec pay will be a small bonus.  Although, I completely expect to be in a slower moving trade, so in the end the $$ will likely be the same...

I think I am advocating for the people who are really being (what I consider) screwed over somewhat on this policy.  Not the CTing folks like me.

 

[crackshot17]

Don't get me wrong, the money is a nice perkof an OT from Lineman to NE TECH but not the focal point.  The only thing I am sayin is that the people giving the offers should be more explicit when they make the offer.  NO WHERE was this explained to me prior to the offer and my acceptance.  I understand some are motivated monitarily to transfer, but not this guy.  There has been a lot of change in the last few years wrt Spec pay and it is all a bit overwhelming at times.  Take the time to fully understand what you are getting into.  Yes, losing mky leaf sucks, but I only have 7 years in I certainly hope I can get it back before I am done.  If it had been fully described before I signed, I would have felt better than finding it in the CBI myself after the fact....I still would have signed but would have been fully informed and accepting.

 

[Messmom]

If a remuster or CT costs you a few bucks then that is the price of a new trade. What truely sucks about this policy is that some trades ( stoker comes RIGHT to mind ) spend 3 or 4 or in some case more years as LS in their trade waiting for the tech course only to go through the course to come out the other end with about 30 bucks a month more than you went in with is just a kick in the groin. Then a LS Sonar OP or NES OP ( no digs at the operators for the spec pay here...honest...really I understand how it came about) does a quick 6 month QL5 course 3 months after getting their LS and boom, there is the spec pay. The stoker spent hundreds of hours preping for the Cert boards to get the chance at taking a bag drive of a tech course to get the same outcome.....

Just an FYI I am NOT a stoker, nor anywhere in the MSE world. I come from the CSE side of the house so I do know what a bag drive the tech courses are and I used to be an Op so I knew the coursing there as well. With the new policy for advanced promotions there is a kid at CFNES as we speak who worked his butt off to get his shipside QL4 package done in record time ( along with his MCR watch keeper and NETP packages ) so he could get course loaded on his QL5s. He will finish up after 13 months in school as a fully trained Journeyman NET while still an AB for three months until his 4 years is complete. Now there is a deal for the navy. Fully trained tech we get to underpay for 3 months. Where is the incentive for these kids? Certainly not in a 25 year contract. I fully expect to see this kid either out or in the wardroom within 2 years.................

 

[17thRecceSgt]

Ok folks...here it is.

SUBJ: SPECIALIST PAY OCCUPATIONAL IMPLEMENTATION PLAN (OSIP) FOR NCMS - ADMINISTRATIVE DIRECTION

REFS: (removed, you can ask me for them if you want them)

1. IN ORDER TO ENSURE THAT ASSIGNMENT OF SPECIALIST PAY IS ADMINISTERED APPROPRIATELY, THE FOLLOWING DIRECTION IS PROVIDED AS INDICATED AT REF C PARA 12

2. FOR CFRG, ALL PERSONNEL ENROLLED INTO A SPECIALIST OCCUPATION ARE TO BE ENROLLED INTO THE JR SUB-DIVISION FOR THAT OCCUPATION

3. THE INTENTION OF THE OSIP IS TO ENSURE THAT PERSONNEL ONLY RECEIVE SPECIALIST PAY WHEN THEY ARE FULLY QUALIFIED IAW THEIR OCCUPATION SPECIFICATION (OS) AND HAVE ACHIEVED THE REQUIRED RANK IAW OCCUPATION REQUIREMENTS (SEE CHART ON DPPD WEBSITE) HTTP(removed) AND DOWNLOAD EXCEL SPREADSHEET

4. UNITS ARE ONLY TO MOVE PERSONNEL INTO THE QUALIFIED SUB-DIVISION UPON ACHIEVEMENT OF BOTH THE REQUIRED RANK AND THE REQUIRED QUALIFICATION FOR THAT SUBDIVISION, WHICHEVER COMES LATER

5. NCMS IN THE RANK OF LS/CPL PRIOR TO ACHIEVING TRADE QUALIFICATION (OR MS/MCPL, PO2/SGT OR PO1/WO) AS REQUIRED FOR THE SPECIFIC OCCUPATION) INCLUDING:

A. MBRS PROMOTED ACTING LACKING
B. MBRS PROMOTED SUBSTANTIVE, AND
C. MBRS WHO ARE VOLUNTARILY OCCUPATIONAL TRANSFERRED

WILL REMAIN IN THE JUNIOR SUB-DIVISION AT STANDARD TRADE GROUP RATES OF PAY (EXCEPT FLT ENG AND NDT TECH MOCS WHICH WILL BE SPEC1 IN THE JR SUBDIVISION) UNTIL ALL OCCUPATIONAL QUALIFICATIONS REQUIREMENTS FOR THE OCCUPATION ARE SUCCESSFULLY ATTAINED. ONCE OCCUPATIONALLY QUALIFIED, THAT MBR WILL BE TRANSFERRED TO THE APPLICABLE SUB-DIVISION AND BE REMUNERATED ACCORDINGLY (SPEC 1 OR SPEC 2). THE RATE OF PAY SHALL BE ESTABLISHED AT THE INCENTIVE PAY CATEGORY FOR THE MBR'S RANK, PAY LEVEL AND NEW TRADE GROUP THAT IS NEAREST TO BUT NOT LESS THAN, THE RATE OF PAY THE MBR WAS RECEIVING ON THE DAY IMMEDIATELY PRIOR TO THE MBR'S TRANSFER FOR THE PURPOSES OF IPC INCREASES, THE IPC ANNIVERSARY DATE SHALL BE THE ACTUAL DATE OF TRANSFER FROM THE STANDARD TRADE GROUP TO THE SPECIALIST TRADE GROUP

Ok, the Spec pay thing I agree with.  I still will never agree to lowering someone's IPC to save a few bucks. 

 

[M Feetham]

Can someone explain to me where it says the the IPC is lowered to base rate. From what I read it says nearest to but not less than the members level of pay the day prior to his OT/CT. To me that says you get your ipc level of pay plus spec. Someone please show me the light if I am reading this wrong, I'm an operator not a pay clerk.
Marc.

 

[aesop081]

Can someone explain to me where it says the the IPC is lowered to base rate. From what I read it says nearest to but not less than the members level of pay the day prior to his OT/CT. To me that says you get your ipc level of pay plus spec. Someone please show me the light if I am reading this wrong, I'm an operator not a pay clerk.
Marc.

You do NOT go to base IPC......i went from MCpl 4 standard to CPL spec1 because that was the closet IPC to my previous pay level......

 

[Bigmac]

      As you all know the Med Tech trade has been undergoing a great deal of transition over the last few years. The first thing to change was the trade name from Medical Assistant to Medical Technician. "Technician " denotes a higher level of knowledge. The problem is how do you compare the military Med Techs to Civilian Paramedics? This comparison to the civilian counterparts is how treasury board determines pay scales for military trades.  The military police have managed to obtain spec pay in this way. What would the Med Tech trade need to do to obtain spec pay?

 

[dapaterson]

Military pay policy:  managed by Director, Pay Policy Development (DPPD) within the Director General, Compensation and Benefits, within the Chief of Military Personnel.  If the Branch can make a compelling case, DPPD will engage TB (if it hasn't already started).

 

[old medic]

    The problem is how do you compare the military Med Techs to Civilian Paramedics?

Assuming a medic has a modern QL3 (Reg) with PCP or Res QL4 with PCP, then the comparision
is with civilian PCP (Primary Care Paramedic).

CFHS has a seat on the PAC board, http://www.paramedic.ca/structure
and follows the NOCP for PCP.

 

[pinkbug]

This is actually interesting.
I am waiting on the feedback from others on this one.
I have given it some thought in the past but never brought up the subject.
I'm glad you did!

How about YOUR views on it ?

 

[Bigmac]

  In the modern battlefield the Med Techs must be up on both their trauma skills and soldiering.  Although PCP training is fine for in Garrison duties it does not prepare the Med Techs for their true calling in battle. Civilian protocols are tossed out the window when you are dealing with multiple wounded while being fired upon by the enemy. Med Techs must all have ATLS as well as regular tactical casualty care training. If they emphasize trauma training and increased soldiering skills then they would definitely deserve spec pay.
  I understand that by taking civilian paramedic courses makes it easier to compare jobs but there is no comparison. Med Techs are soldiers first and medical specialists second. I say stop trying to civilianize the Med Tech trade. The quest for civilian equivilancy could very well lead to Med Techs being replaced by soldiers with advanced medical skills such as ATLS and TCCC.
  Don't get me wrong, I still believe Med Techs are extremely important. But with increased trauma skills and soldiering they will become invaluable assets and thus desrving of a higher payscale.

 

[pinkbug]

Well, BigMac, I have to agree with you. Fully.

Paramedic are paid a certain amount of dollars and they have to do most of the same training/take most of the same courses as a Med Tech.
There are certain instance where the Paramedic has to risk his/her life as much as the Med Tech.
But to balance it off, I think the pay should be more for the Med Tech due to the fact, they are soldiers first. And they risk their lives way more than a Civilian Medic.

If I was to vote on this, my personal vote would be to increase the pay for the med tech. Without second thoughts.
I speak of experience

 

[old medic]

The Primary Care Paramedic (PCP) has successfully completed a recognized educational program in paramedicine at the primary care level. PCPs may be volunteer or career paramedics associated with urban, suburban, rural, remote, industrial, air ambulance and / or military services. PCPs constitute the largest group of paramedic practitioners in Canada. They are expected to demonstrate excellent decision-making skills, based on sound knowledge and principles. Controlled or delegated medical acts1 identified in the PCP competency profile include semi-automated defibrillation and the administration of certain medications.

The Advanced Care Paramedic (ACP) has successfully completed a recognized educational program in paramedicine at the advanced care level. Such programs often require prior certification at the PCP level (or equivalent). ACPs are most often employed by urban, suburban, air ambulance and / or military services. Currently relatively few ACPs are found in rural areas. ACPs are expected to build upon the foundation of PCP competencies, and apply their added knowledge and skills to provide enhanced levels of assessment and care. This includes the added responsibilities and expectations related to an increased number of controlled or delegated medical acts available. Controlled or delegated medical acts1 identified in the ACP competency profile include advanced techniques to manage life-threatening problems affecting patient airway, breathing, and circulation. ACPs may implement treatment measures that are invasive and / or pharmacological in nature.

The Critical Care Paramedic (CCP) has successfully completed a recognized educational program in paramedicine at the critical care level. This is currently the highest level of paramedic certification available. CCPs are most often associated with large urban and / or air ambulance services, and are not found in all provinces. The CCP is expected to perform thorough assessments that include the interpretation of patient laboratory and radiological data. CCPs’ high levels of decision-making and differential discrimination skills relating to patient care, result in their implementing treatment measures both autonomously and after consultation with medical authorities. Many controlled or delegated medical acts1 are available to the CCP. Those identified in the CCP competency profile include the use of invasive hemodynamic monitoring devices and advanced techniques to manage life-threatening problems affecting patient airway, breathing, and circulation. CCPs typically implement treatment measures that are invasive and / or pharmacological in nature.

The competencies at each practitioner level are cumulative, in that each level includes, and exceeds, the competencies of the previous level. Furthermore the competencies defined in these profiles are the minimum required at each practitioner level. Employment jurisdictions can, and frequently do, exceed these requirements.

Regulation of Paramedic Practice and Approval of Training Programs

The practice of paramedicine in Canada is regulated by each province or, in the case of federal jurisdictions such as the military, by an appropriate federal authority.

Each regulator is free to determine the scope of practice and practitioner classification system that applies in its jurisdiction. Similarly the regulator may approve training program(s) that are a prerequisite to employment.

A number of regulators are aligning their practitioner classifications with PAC’s levels.

In addition to complying with local regulatory requirements, many training programs across the country have elected to participate in the voluntary national accreditation process for paramedic training administered by the Canadian Medical Association (CMA). CMA issues Requirements for Accreditation that include an expectation that a program ensures that its graduates possess the competencies determined by the national professional association.