CAF Sexual Misconduct PR War- Swerved Into a Mess Discussion

No surprise and pretty much expected. The SMSRC seems to be picking up speed in its delivery and the upcoming zoom discussion on April 11 will be interesting. Curious if Lise Bourgon will be attending and ask for "more positive" stories from MST survivors to help recruiting efforts again...

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Milnet.ca Staff

 

[Remius]

Absolutely, I'm not looking backward will fully rose tinted glasses. I cant say what the date of it is, but its old (see link). I would imagine 50s or 60s probably.

http://www.forposterityssake.ca/RCN-DOCS/NeptunesNotes.pdf

And we are also battling a societal problem. What's going on in the CAF WRT sexual misconduct is also happening and coming into the CAF from the overly sexualized society we are drawing from.



Its hard to explain, but a good example is on my last FRE trip, the amount of times I had to kick officers out of the JRs mess when I was DCox'n was aggravating. I see a lot more social relationships (not meant dating) and and general social interactions with Officers and Jr NCMs than is good for an organization that requires separate ranks and responsibilities.

You can be friendly and nurturing to your subordinates without being friends...

I'm probably explaining this poorly.

No you explained it well enough. It’s something I’ve seen before. Officers in the Jr ranks is something I’ve seen a lot of and I’ve done my fair share of inviting them out of that mess. I guess you are saying that there might be too much familiarity between Officers and the troops.

 

[Halifax Tar]

No you explained it well enough. It’s something I’ve seen before. Officers in the Jr ranks is something I’ve seen a lot of and I’ve done my fair share of inviting them out of that mess. I guess you are saying that there might be too much familiarity between Officers and the troops.

Yup, familiarity might be a better term.

 

[FSTO]

No you explained it well enough. It’s something I’ve seen before. Officers in the Jr ranks is something I’ve seen a lot of and I’ve done my fair share of inviting them out of that mess. I guess you are saying that there might be too much familiarity between Officers and the troops.

How many XO’s were sent home early because they couldn’t stay out of the Main Cave.
Bloody idiots…..and a few of them got to be CO’s.

 

[daftandbarmy]

How many XO’s were sent home early because they couldn’t stay out of the Main Cave.
Bloody idiots…..and a few of them got to be CO’s.

The most dangerous Officers are those who are incompetent.

The second most dangerous are probably those who want to be liked by the troops.

Some successful Senior Officers, sometimes, are both

 

[Halifax Tar]

How many XO’s were sent home early because they couldn’t stay out of the Main Cave.
Bloody idiots…..and a few of them got to be CO’s.

Its about basic discipline. We couldn't get people to stay masked and use the proper in and out routes during COVID. We cant get people follow simple administrative orders but yet we expect people to behave with the bigger stuff.

I think it was @rmc_wannabe who said it, you accept the standard you walk by.

 

[NavyShooter]

I remember on NATO '98 we had the CO come down to the JR's one afternoon. We were alongside for a lot of days in foreign port for a RAMP, and he decided (I guess) to come see how we were doing. Truthfully, we were bored...and making up new beverages. We created a new drink, which we called the Ice Cream Headache. 3 shots of Baileys, 3 shots of Kaluha, 3 shots of Almaretto, add ice, pour in blender, spin, then pour back into a glass. The CO drank 2 of those and we carried him back up to his Cabin. We called that one a 'Great Success'.

That said, when I was a senior MS on the ship, I don't recall ever having to kick out any junior officers. As I rose to PO2 and PO1 and did rounds - I found a few times that I had to evict them from the JR's. Usually at the request of the AB/LS rank level when the MS were busy trying to buddy up with their DIV O who they were drinking with. I was 'asked' if I could come into the mess to sign the rounds book a couple of times by junior members, and I made it a point of 'inviting' those officers out of the JR's as I left.

There needs to be a separation, the troops need that space to decompress and relax. In the same way that the C&PO's needed a space to lean on each other and learn from the grumpy old guys in our Mess.

A ship is, however, very different from a shore establishment, or an Army unit.

Messes ashore are dying.

Messes on a ship need to find ways to support their members, for whom that is their living room and dining room for the duration of a multi-month deployment.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

No you explained it well enough. It’s something I’ve seen before. Officers in the Jr ranks is something I’ve seen a lot of and I’ve done my fair share of inviting them out of that mess. I guess you are saying that there might be too much familiarity between Officers and the troops.

I find it varies within services and branches. I work in a Divisional HQ, where there are more Maj/LCols than MCpl/Cpls. Things are polite, jovial, and we all work together as a team.

That said, no one forgets themselves and where they sit in the pecking order. Even as a Subaltern, I may see the COS or DComd in the mess, but I know to mind my Ps and Qs

 

[TacticalTea]

And we are also battling a societal problem. What's going on in the CAF WRT sexual misconduct is also happening and coming into the CAF from the overly sexualized society we are drawing from.

Curious what you meant by that exactly. Would you care to elaborate?

 

[Remius]

Curious what you meant by that exactly. Would you care to elaborate?

Look at Hockey Canada, gymnastics, most universities etc etc. The problem is not unique to the CAF.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Curious what you meant by that exactly. Would you care to elaborate?

This does it pretty good:

Effects of Hypersexualization

L’hypersexualisation est le phénomène par lequel les médias donnent un caractère sexuel à un produit ou à un comportement qui n'a rien de sexuel.

www.quebec.ca

 

[TacticalTea]

This does it pretty good:

Effects of Hypersexualization

L’hypersexualisation est le phénomène par lequel les médias donnent un caractère sexuel à un produit ou à un comportement qui n'a rien de sexuel.

www.quebec.ca

Right. This seems to relate to the effects of social media, the internet, and popular culture on folks - younger ones especially. An issue which I am keenly aware of.

But I'm having difficulty squaring that with the notion that - as female acquaintances tell me - things have gotten better* (wrt HISB), and with data such as this:

Why Today's Teens Are Having So Much Less Sex

Notice something different about the way young people relate to each other? It's part of why they have sex less often.

www.psychologytoday.com

*Derived from deduction; conversations on the matter go more along the lines of ''It was very bad when I was in (ex.) Poland/wherever, they're very backwards compared to here", implying we have progressed at least somewhat.


Might it be explained by an overall decrease in sex but an overall increase in ''uncommitted'' sex, driven by an apparent increased aversion for committed relationships of all types?

Fewer Young People Say I Do -- to Any Relationship

Along with the sharp decline in marriages among young Americans, the percentage living together has hardly budged, meaning not only are fewer young adults married, but also fewer are in committed relationships.

news.gallup.com

Not according to this data:

Young people are having less casual sex and spending more time scrolling on social media

A new study adds to evidence that financial uncertainty and social media are changing the sexual landscape for young adults.

www.insider.com

Data on decreasing prevalence of HISB:

 

[Halifax Tar]

Right. This seems to relate to the effects of social media, the internet, and popular culture on folks - younger ones especially. An issue which I am keenly aware of.

But I'm having difficulty squaring that with the notion that - as female acquaintances tell me - things have gotten better* (wrt HISB), and with data such as this:

Why Today's Teens Are Having So Much Less Sex

Notice something different about the way young people relate to each other? It's part of why they have sex less often.

www.psychologytoday.com

*Derived from deduction; conversations on the matter go more along the lines of ''It was very bad when I was in (ex.) Poland/wherever, they're very backwards compared to here", implying we have progressed at least somewhat.


Might it be explained by an overall decrease in sex but an overall increase in ''uncommitted'' sex, driven by an apparent increased aversion for committed relationships of all types?

Fewer Young People Say I Do -- to Any Relationship

Along with the sharp decline in marriages among young Americans, the percentage living together has hardly budged, meaning not only are fewer young adults married, but also fewer are in committed relationships.

news.gallup.com

Not according to this data:

Young people are having less casual sex and spending more time scrolling on social media

A new study adds to evidence that financial uncertainty and social media are changing the sexual landscape for young adults.

www.insider.com

In August 2022, Statistics Canada reported that sexual assault is the only violent crime in Canada not declining. According to the report, the sexual assault rate in 2021 was the highest since 1996. There were more than 34,200 reports of sexual assault in Canada in 2021, an 18 per cent increase from 2020.

Sexual Assault is on the Rise in Canada — Alberta Civil Liberties Research Centre

Source: flicker/ Egui_ By Myrna El Fakhry Tuttle Though sexual assault is the only violent crime in Canada not declining, many incidents are not reported to police for reasons including victim blaming and low confidence in the justice system.

www.aclrc.com

 

[Navy_Pete]

How many XO’s were sent home early because they couldn’t stay out of the Main Cave.
Bloody idiots…..and a few of them got to be CO’s.

I think that's where departmental events are useful; you can socialize with the people you work with everyday without invading someone else's space. Heavy workshop/AAMR parties are one example, but also did the occasional breakfast, paintballing, golf etc.

SLt is a weird one, as you spend your time double banking on watches and basically being a voluntold S3 for every crappy job, so familiarity and friendships with the folks you work with every day and are in the same age range is totally normal.

Going to the same thing when I got up in rank was good for the same reason, and gave me a chance to say thanks in a concrete way by chipping in with a few other senior folks, and then usually step away before things got crazy (while knowing folks would look after their wingers).

With messes costing the same as civi side, and with the distances to travel in some cities (NCR) still do the same now, just on the local economy.

 

[Remius]

With messes costing the same as civi side, and with the distances to travel in some cities (NCR) still do the same now, just on the local economy.

This.

It wouldn’t be hard for troops to go hang out after work, like anyone else does in their workplace, and finding their own space. Maybe not in some locations but most.

 

[TacticalTea]

In August 2022, Statistics Canada reported that sexual assault is the only violent crime in Canada not declining. According to the report, the sexual assault rate in 2021 was the highest since 1996. There were more than 34,200 reports of sexual assault in Canada in 2021, an 18 per cent increase from 2020.

Sexual Assault is on the Rise in Canada — Alberta Civil Liberties Research Centre

Source: flicker/ Egui_ By Myrna El Fakhry Tuttle Though sexual assault is the only violent crime in Canada not declining, many incidents are not reported to police for reasons including victim blaming and low confidence in the justice system.

www.aclrc.com

Hard to make sense of cherry-picked data points without graphs to see the overall picture. Not criticizing you for that, I'm just saying that as a matter of fact.

The StatsCan report does mention that Lvl1 SA (which represents 98% of SA) jumped 18%, after easing of lockdown measures, which is likely to have contributed, and this rise in reporting comes in the wake of a massive cultural shift wrt to how society reacts to those reports, so it seems very likely to me that more victims feel confident enough to report than they used to and that this phenomenon does more to explain the rise than any theorized increase in actual SV.

Otherwise, presumably, we'd also see an increase in Lvl2 and Lvl3 SA.

Another theory might be that the decrease in consensual sex which I highlighted above might be causing a compensatory increase in predatory behaviour. Could be accentuated by the rise in anti-social behaviour caused by the pandemic/lockdown. I find that unlikely, however, given the aforementioned culture change and the reasons for the decrease (lessened social interactions).

All this to say, I don't think we can point to a ''hypersexualized society'' to explain the CAF's current HISB woes. Much of it comes down to the society-wide cultural change, and then part of it, I would say, can be laid at the feet of our failure to enforce existing regulations. I'd be hard pressed to accept that the actual inclination to engage in HISB is worse today than it was say, 5, 10, 30 years ago.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Hard to make sense of cherry-picked data points without graphs to see the overall picture. Not criticizing you for that, I'm just saying that as a matter of fact.

The StatsCan report does mention that Lvl1 SA (which represents 98% of SA) jumped 18%, after easing of lockdown measures, which is likely to have contributed, and this rise in reporting comes in the wake of a massive cultural shift wrt to how society reacts to those reports, so it seems very likely to me that more victims feel confident enough to report than they used to and that this phenomenon does more to explain the rise than any theorized increase in actual SV.

Otherwise, presumably, we'd also see an increase in Lvl2 and Lvl3 SA.

Another theory might be that the decrease in consensual sex which I highlighted above might be causing a compensatory increase in predatory behaviour. Could be accentuated by the rise in anti-social behaviour caused by the pandemic/lockdown. I find that unlikely, however, given the aforementioned culture change and the reasons for the decrease (lessened social interactions).

All this to say, I don't think we can point to a ''hypersexualized society'' to explain the CAF's current HISB woes. Much of it comes down to the society-wide cultural change, and then part of it, I would say, can be laid at the feet of our failure to enforce existing regulations. I'd be hard pressed to accept that the actual inclination to engage in HISB is worse today than it was say, 5, 10, 30 years ago.

It's not my report or data, you're not criticizing me.

My point is more sexual assaults in Canada will probably correlate to more sexual assaults in th CAF. We are just a reflection of the society we are composed of.

We don't make sexual predators. They come in the CAF with predaliction already in place. And then we have to use our tools to deal with them.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

It's not my report or data, you're not criticizing me.

My point is more sexual assaults in Canada will probably correlate to more sexual assaults in th CAF. We are just a reflection of the society we are composed of.

We don't make sexual predators. They come in the CAF with predaliction already in place. And then we have to use our tools to deal with them.

Correlation and causation are 2 different variables in statistics.

One might posit that the rate of SA increasing in both Canadian society and the CAF may have to do with more progressive attitudes IRT reporting, victim's rights, and the way SA itself is handled in the LEO/Judicial system Han in years previous.

Not refuting that 1 is too many.. just pointing out that it's hard to put a metric that its increasing without accounting for other variables.

 

[TacticalTea]

It's not my report or data, you're not criticizing me.

My point is more sexual assaults in Canada will probably correlate to more sexual assaults in th CAF. We are just a reflection of the society we are composed of.

We don't make sexual predators. They come in the CAF with predaliction already in place. And then we have to use our tools to deal with them.

For sure. Violently concur on all.

I just don't think we're seeing an increase in occurrence, only in reporting. As is society. That we draw from.

And as such, I don't see this issue as a particularly military one. Where we are particularly concerned (and have been failing at) is the last thing you said (bolded), imho.

 

[CountDC]

Should we take bets on if the messes will be closed/ CAF being dry by the Christmas/ whatever people are calling it now because Christmas offends them dinner?

Imagine it is called "SAD" Soldiers Appreciation Dinner. With the way things have gone SAD is a suitable name.

I 'voted with my feet' when I had a major falling out (up to the Brigade SM Level) with the Mess Manager when they refused to re-open our 'satellite mess' because it was 'losing money'.

I was rather blunt...the civilian Mess Manager needed to understand why exactly it wasn't losing money, but was rather providing a service to the paying members of the mess.

I now pay my dues at another mess (C&PO's mess on base) and I look forward to the Mess Manager coming to me again to say I owe dues...I really do look forward to telling them to go to hell.

That said, as a "satellite mess", the only service our troops get is Tuesday nights from 2130-2300 hrs.

The tables are falling apart, the chairs are 40 years old, and there's a dozen burnt out light bulbs in the mess. And this is the Sgts/WO's mess. Which is now the 'all ranks' mess because the MCpl and Below is in much worse shape.

A fundamental re-think of the messes should have happened 20+ years ago.

There is very much a requirement for us to provide a place for relaxation and camaraderie.

That should be a 'safe space' for the members. Maybe it should be run by the unit's Sentinels? I don't know.

Maybe I'm too old and grumpy to see what the new generation needs, but I know it's not collapsing ceilings, falling apart chairs and tables, and a 90 minute a week window of use.

I hope I misunderstand what you are saying. The mess manager decided to close the satellite and keep it closed? Not a mess manager call. If it was losing money then the Mess committee should have looked at how it was and solved the issue. Did they have bar staff they were paying? Have a member of the mess play bartender instead for the brief period it is open. The mess could pay for any mandatory certification needed.

 

[ueo]

I have a copy somewhere of RCN instructions for young Officers on how to behave and conduct themselves like gentlemen. It covered most aspect of the young Naval Officers life.

Army, at least my regt has much the same thing.