CAF Combat boots policy 2005-2018

[armyvern]

... It will never see the light of day. Right now we are emptying the shelves at both depots of all boots in a systematic order. We have also been told that a new boot sizing kit will be on the way to us before Christmas. For what you ask? Pimped out MkIVs... yessir. Mark 4s are back.

Yep; and

...
What you're saying is what I was told by the army RSM or whoever he was, with all his fancy patches.  (CWO Guimond, Cdn Army Sergeant-Major) <--- inserted by Vern

New boots will be modified mk4's (vibram soles, speed laces) and f**K  all the guys who paid out of their own pocket for quality boots that work(and don't fall apart)  cause once the new ones new-new ones are issued there will be a crusade against non-issued boots. Again.

Yep.

 

[BinRat55]

Sweet, the system can keep buying me LPO boots, because MarkIVs aren't even close to fitting me properly. Do you know if they've finally got a contract in place to custom fit the boots? Its been years since I heard anything about it after the contract was let to expire without renewal/replacement.

No answer there - all I can say is that custom fitting is / was not cost efficient. 1200.00 for a pair of boots? With the mondo-point sizing, there are over 70 sizes in one boot style. That said, most soldiers should fit. There are definitely those who won't (we are not all the same dimensions) but there will also be the soldiers who will want the "cool factor" with a high speed, low drag boot. Now, don't get me wrong - there's nothing better for a soldier's foot than a really good boot. But considerations have to be made for the vast difference in use, wear, and climate changes according to tours and such. No, a custom fit will MTL come down to Ottawa approving the LPO route only after all other avenues have been exhausted to keep the soldier in an issued boot.

And yes, it's that much red tape. You just can't walk into Clothing Stores and say that you can't wear what's issued so you need to go downtown. Our LPO Cpl has to jump through several hoops first. Try this, try that, how about this, can we do that... only then can he request authorization for LPO.

 

[LightFighter]

Are the new/old boots going to stay brown or are we going back to black boots?

Also, out of curiosity do we still have a contract for desert boots, or was that cancelled/expired after the LOTBs came out?

 

[ballz]

I'm sorry, I just need to vent so bare with me....

No answer there - all I can say is that custom fitting is / was not cost efficient. 1200.00 for a pair of boots?

If cost efficiency were a factor, we wouldn't be where we are today at all.

With the mondo-point sizing, there are over 70 sizes in one boot style. That said, most soldiers should fit.

How long have we been using this mondo-point sizing? I think there is more to a boot "fitting" than just physical dimensions. I can get 6 boots off the shelf that "fit," but some will destroy my feet after only 5km. People don't seem to understand it, and it doesn't help when you've got guys like this guy from DLR trying to solve the problem. I don't know him and I don't want to step on my dick here but I'm going to go out on a limb and say he's probably never been employed beyond a desk based on his comments, unless there is a typo.

“Some users might say, ‘I want the lightest possible boots I can have, which is good for my job’,” Maj. Lottinville said. “But when you put those boots on a soldier in Afghanistan, with 20 pounds of backpack and ammo and everything? It hurts their feet.”

There are definitely those who won't (we are not all the same dimensions) but there will also be the soldiers who will want the "cool factor" with a high speed, low drag boot.

I hear this a lot. I have never heard anyone say "your boots look awesome, I want a pair." I have heard questions like "are they waterproof? do they dry out quickly? are they breathable? do they have ankle support? how long did it take to break them in? are they light? etc etc." I know they use "looks" as one of the criteria and this is supposedly based on research that the troops want a good-looking boot, but there are few things I hate more than the suggestion than the reason most people are wearing non-issued boots is simply because they want a cool-looking boot, which insinuates that there is actually no problem with our boots or diminishes the problem to negligible.

Can someone explain how the bra-allowances / issuing of bras work for women? My understanding is its a simply allowance that they get, recognizing that bras are a highly individual thing and all that jazz. Is there any actual tangible reason this can't be done for boots or is it simply a bunch of dinosaurs that we have to wait out until some common sense gets promoted to the top?

 

[SupersonicMax]

Why not issue boots and if people are unhappy, let them buy boots, given some guidelines for look?

 

[PuckChaser]

Why not issue boots and if people are unhappy, let them buy boots, given some guidelines for look?

I have 3 kids. Buying my own boots that fit went out the door as soon as I had extra mouths to feed.

The CAF should not being issuing crap just to say they issued something, basically forcing pers to buy their own. I'm willing to bet the military factor in my pay wasn't set up to compensate for $700 bucks in boots every 2 years.

Proper boots are going to save the CAF lots of cash in medical treatments and VAC claims, but people in DLR/NDHQ who make far more money than me don't understand that yet.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I have 3 kids. Buying my own boots that fit went out the door as soon as I had extra mouths to feed.

The CAF should not being issuing crap just to say they issued something, basically forcing pers to buy their own. I'm willing to bet the military factor in my pay wasn't set up to compensate for $700 bucks in boots every 2 years.

Proper boots are going to save the CAF lots of cash in medical treatments and VAC claims, but people in DLR/NDHQ who make far more money than me don't understand that yet.

Clearly, you have forgotten that the vital ground in CF clothing procurement is the PQ textile industry, not soldiers' feet

 

[armyvern]

Is there any actual tangible reason this can't be done for boots or is it simply a bunch of dinosaurs that we have to wait out until some common sense gets promoted to the top?

Yeah; just search the site where the reasoning has been posted numerous times over the past 10 years or so (and many times by me personally).

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I'm sorry, I just need to vent so bare with me....

If cost efficiency were a factor, we wouldn't be where we are today at all.

How long have we been using this mondo-point sizing? I think there is more to a boot "fitting" than just physical dimensions. I can get 6 boots off the shelf that "fit," but some will destroy my feet after only 5km. People don't seem to understand it, and it doesn't help when you've got guys like this guy from DLR trying to solve the problem. I don't know him and I don't want to step on my dick here but I'm going to go out on a limb and say he's probably never been employed beyond a desk based on his comments, unless there is a typo.

I hear this a lot. I have never heard anyone say "your boots look awesome, I want a pair." I have heard questions like "are they waterproof? do they dry out quickly? are they breathable? do they have ankle support? how long did it take to break them in? are they light? etc etc." I know they use "looks" as one of the criteria and this is supposedly based on research that the troops want a good-looking boot, but there are few things I hate more than the suggestion than the reason most people are wearing non-issued boots is simply because they want a cool-looking boot, which insinuates that there is actually no problem with our boots or diminishes the problem to negligible.

Can someone explain how the bra-allowances / issuing of bras work for women? My understanding is its a simply allowance that they get, recognizing that bras are a highly individual thing and all that jazz. Is there any actual tangible reason this can't be done for boots or is it simply a bunch of dinosaurs that we have to wait out until some common sense gets promoted to the top?

Our boots suck, your options are buy your own or wear the crap the CAF gives you.  Unfortunate, but that's the reality.

Going back to black MkIVs is a big step back as far as technology is concerned.  I'm sure I'll still be seeing the same arguments ten years from now on here  :rofl:

 

[Eye In The Sky]

CAF boots...just like bell-bottoms, hold onto them because they WILL come back in style sooner or later.  ^-^

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

CAF boots...just like bell-bottoms, hold onto them because they WILL come back in style sooner or later.  ^-^

So disco isn't dead?  >

 

[PuckChaser]

Yeah; just search the site where the reasoning has been posted numerous times over the past 10 years or so (and many times by me personally).

I just looked back to find some of those posts, and the reasoning you gave was political. Politics is a cop-out reasoning when the Colonels and GOFOs in NDHQ won't fight for what is right. Politics doesn't stand up to a few strong-willed individuals that have been entrusted with a high enough rank to make those changes. Boots cannot be such a sacred cow that no one can fight up against it. Look at what happened with Mefloquine. Enough political weight came to bear by the media and Canadian public and a positive change was made. Do we really have to fight for our feet on CBC, or can someone in the puzzle palace demonstrate at least one of the principles of leadership and sort this mess out? Its almost like we need the Mark Norman of boots to come to the rescue...

 

[Eye In The Sky]

So disco isn't dead?  >

You mean you don't have your boots, disco, leather, side-zip from Logistik yet??  The ones that go with your pants, DEU, short/tight and sweater, CF, knit, too small for the At Home and Jnr Ranks Christmas Dinners?  rancing:

To top it all off...Yukon hat!

 

[SupersonicMax]

I have 3 kids. Buying my own boots that fit went out the door as soon as I had extra mouths to feed.

The CAF should not being issuing crap just to say they issued something, basically forcing pers to buy their own. I'm willing to bet the military factor in my pay wasn't set up to compensate for $700 bucks in boots every 2 years.

Proper boots are going to save the CAF lots of cash in medical treatments and VAC claims, but people in DLR/NDHQ who make far more money than me don't understand that yet.

Having this as an option would still be better than no option.  We don't pay a dime for work clothes.  Generally, for equivalent civilian jobs, we make a lot more than others that have to buy clothes for work.  700$ every 2 years is hardly unreasonable.

 

[Gunner98]

Proper boots are going to save the CAF lots of cash in medical treatments and VAC claims, but people in DLR/NDHQ who make far more money than me don't understand that yet.

PC, can you define what you consider to be "proper boots"? 

Medical treatments and VAC claims seldom result from the boots that CAF members' currently wear, they result from the things that soldiers are required to perform, by their change of command or the tactical situation. Think of all of these situations and try to find one boot that meets them all.  Running 12 miles around the airfield in Lahr one morning per week in the old Greb boots was something that MOs told COs was destroying soldiers' back, knees, ankles and soles; however, the COs knew better.  I think any of the footwear offered in supply, except those wonderful shiny short-lived garrison boots, are far superior to those Grebs with harden soles.  I found SWATs to my comfortable and paid out of my own pocket for black and brown versions later in my career, once allowed.  I found a US Army surplus store near Bethesda Maryland that sold them for about U$75.  When it came time for forced marching (BFT or whatever) rather than office lounging, I preferred the issue boots.

 

[PuckChaser]

PC, can you define what you consider to be "proper boots"? 

Simple, really. Proper boots are commercially viable in size/style that someone in the US military who has an option for their footwear would buy. Its a boot that is designed to be as light as possible while not wearing out, that's breathable, and has proper ankle support. The boots should also be in common commercial sizing instead of the garbage mondo point system.

The LOTB produced a SWAT clone which was only good for walking around in an office until the boots stitching started coming apart (as mine did). The previous CWWB produced a boot that was a hockey puck in the cold, wet weather it was designed to be in. The MkIV weighs a metric ton for no good reason. Mk3s were good boots, standard commercial boot sizing, but wholly out of date technology. There are many successful military boot manufacturers out there, but we're scared of MOTS products and are constantly reinventing the wheel on something so simple like footwear. Belleville, Rocky, Oakley, Hanwag, Lowa just to name a small few make excellent boots that have millions of miles of military use in the designs.

 

[ballz]

PC, can you define what you consider to be "proper boots"?

By the looks of it, DLR sure can't. Hence the argument for something that provides the individual with flexibility / choice. I don't even care for a boot allowance, I'd be happy with 5-6 different boots that everyone can pick. Just buy them off the shelf at a wholesale price from reputable brands and stop with this B.S. statement of requirements stuff and paying big $$$ for a company who has never made boots to produce crappy ones.

Medical treatments and VAC claims seldom result from the boots that CAF members' currently wear, they result from the things that soldiers are required to perform, by their change of command or the tactical situation. Think of all of these situations and try to find one boot that meets them all.

This is an argument for not having everyone wear the same boot. People in different jobs will naturally prefer different boots based on what they face day-to-day, just like different jobs will require a different tac-vest. Given the ability to choose a boot that fits your requirements the best will most certainly cut down on the injuries you sustain while performing your duties.

I found SWATs to my comfortable and paid out of my own pocket for black and brown versions later in my career, once allowed.  I found a US Army surplus store near Bethesda Maryland that sold them for about U$75.  When it came time for forced marching (BFT or whatever) rather than office lounging, I preferred the issue boots.

I'm confused about what your thoughts are on this whole thing at this point.

 

[Gunner98]

I'm confused about what your thoughts are on this whole thing at this point.

I asked the question about "proper boots" as I have no concept of what is considered as 'proper footwear' for an Infantryman patrolling in Latvia or Iraq or even Wainwright today.

Since I retired 4 years, my thoughts at this point are: Thank God I can wear whatever I want on my feet or nothing at all on my feet. My feet are size 7 with a FF width.  I have a box in my garage of at least 6 different issue and non-issue boots/shoes, the only ones I ever felt comfortable in were the SWATS.  During my 29+ years of service, I can say comfort was seldom a consideration when I went to the Supply section.  Everything was too large or too small, and like the Grumpy Old Man in the SNL sketches of long ago, "That's the way it was, and we liked it! We loved it!"

 

[LightFighter]

Any reason why we are going back to a black boot instead of staying with brown? 

 

[RedcapCrusader]

Any reason why we are going back to a black boot instead of staying with brown?

Probably the Secret RSM Society met and decided that black is back because they want troops to have blackened and polished boots in garrison, again.