C3 Howitzer Replacement

[Good2Golf]

It seems they made them better than the original and that's why they were desirable. How they got permission from the OEM I don't know.

…because Canada was a responsible Defence partner then…

 

[KevinB]

Canadair sold licensed copies of the F-86 Sabre, some even to the U.S. They also sold the CF-104 and I think there are others I'm forgetting right now.

Canadair Sabre - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

It seems they made them better than the original and that's why they were desirable. How they got permission from the OEM I don't know.

In addition to @Good2Golf ‘s very valid comments, the US had moved past both those platforms and the OEM had no interest in continuing the lines at that point.

Canada of 2022/23 Isn’t the Canada of the 1950 and 60’s. PET and spawn have ensured that.

 

[NavyShooter]

Up until about 3 years ago, FMF Cape Breton had a barrel rifling machine, capable of creating naval gun barrels. That capability was divested/scrapped after the Navy realized that we hadn't used it in over 20 years.

Suppose...just suppose....FMF Cape Breton had instead been hired to build a bunch of new 105mm gun barrels?

Now that capability is gone.

It would cost us dearly to get it back in today's world.

 

[suffolkowner]

In addition to @Good2Golf ‘s very valid comments, the US had moved past both those platforms and the OEM had no interest in continuing the lines at that point.

Canada of 2022/23 Isn’t the Canada of the 1950 and 60’s. PET and spawn have ensured that.

I think Diefenbaker and Mulroney deserve some credit there as well (gotta leave something for the devil)

 

[Spencer100]

I think Diefenbaker and Mulroney deserve some credit there as well (gotta leave something for the devil)

Mulroney increased industry in this country. We had more auto plants because of him etc. Yes some small branch ops closed but in the long run they would have anyways. The current Gov has seen more industry close than any before it.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Up until about 3 years ago, FMF Cape Breton had a barrel rifling machine, capable of creating naval gun barrels. That capability was divested/scrapped after the Navy realized that we hadn't used it in over 20 years.

Suppose...just suppose....FMF Cape Breton had instead been hired to build a bunch of new 105mm gun barrels?

Now that capability is gone.

It would cost us dearly to get it back in today's world.

Like vaccine manufacturing?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Up until about 3 years ago, FMF Cape Breton had a barrel rifling machine, capable of creating naval gun barrels. That capability was divested/scrapped after the Navy realized that we hadn't used it in over 20 years.

Suppose...just suppose....FMF Cape Breton had instead been hired to build a bunch of new 105mm gun barrels?

Now that capability is gone.

It would cost us dearly to get it back in today's world.

Sounds like it would have been perfect for a our coming soon 127mm's

 

[childs56]

Up until about 3 years ago, FMF Cape Breton had a barrel rifling machine, capable of creating naval gun barrels. That capability was divested/scrapped after the Navy realized that we hadn't used it in over 20 years.

Suppose...just suppose....FMF Cape Breton had instead been hired to build a bunch of new 105mm gun barrels?

Now that capability is gone.

It would cost us dearly to get it back in today's world.

There is a company just outside Edmonton with the old Lathes to make tank barrels. They said they have not missed a beat since WWII.

 

[KevinB]

There is a company just outside Edmonton with the old Lathes to make tank barrels. They said they have not missed a beat since WWII.

Making a barrel requires a lot more than a lathe. The lathe is the easiest and cheapest of the components needed to make a rifled barrel. It deals with external profile and (depending on setup type) possibly chambering.

You still need a barrel drill
Then either a broaching machine, a hammer forge, or a cut rifle setup.
Then a polishing press, and an internal and external coating system.

Plus a Heat Treatment, and the raw materials.

None of those are cheap, small or easily acquired for a howitzer sized barrel.

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

starting to think, there are a lot of canons and canon balls sitting in various museums around Canada.
Time for an inventory check and refurbishment planning, to bring these relics back to service because there seems very little chance of a new 105mm anything being purchased or the ones in system now being refurbished, or updated.
I said a long time ago that the chance of new guns were slim to nothing.
Res Units are already sharing COs, RSMs and guns.
Ontario alone has 6 Res RCA units or did I miss count?
7 Guns in Toronto has the ceremonial role for Toronto ( need for working guns )
30 FD in Ottawa has the ceremonial role for Ottawa ( need for working guns ) but 2 Horse in Petawawa could do it, they have done local communities Remembrance Day Parades with 105mm firing blank rounds
33 Brigade has 3 Units of the RCA.
That is a lot of gun required to operate

Pool what guns are left after the Ceremonial Units are kitted out with guns able to fire blank rounds.
Non Repairable guns are left in the Armouries to be used as training aids and for dry fire training on the parade square or what ever.
Working guns are pooled at Petawawa or Meaford with a service crew to maintain them made of Reg and Res Force members.

Units close to Petawawa or get funding to send troops from outside the area to work with 2Horse to learn how the M777 works and train to be part of the gun crew on their exercises so the troops are trained and deployable if the guns are ever needed to be forward deployed again.

The same can be done at Gagetown, Wainwright, and at Shilo.

Only other way I can see the Res RCA units getting guns is buy used guns from the USA Army as they seem to have more current guns and usually have spares or war stock.

 

[ueo]

starting to think, there are a lot of canons and canon balls sitting in various museums around Canada.
Time for an inventory check and refurbishment planning, to bring these relics back to service because there seems very little chance of a new 105mm anything being purchased or the ones in system now being refurbished, or updated.
I said a long time ago that the chance of new guns were slim to nothing.
Res Units are already sharing COs, RSMs and guns.
Ontario alone has 6 Res RCA units or did I miss count?
7 Guns in Toronto has the ceremonial role for Toronto ( need for working guns )
30 FD in Ottawa has the ceremonial role for Ottawa ( need for working guns ) but 2 Horse in Petawawa could do it, they have done local communities Remembrance Day Parades with 105mm firing blank rounds
33 Brigade has 3 Units of the RCA.
That is a lot of gun required to operate

Pool what guns are left after the Ceremonial Units are kitted out with guns able to fire blank rounds.
Non Repairable guns are left in the Armouries to be used as training aids and for dry fire training on the parade square or what ever.
Working guns are pooled at Petawawa or Meaford with a service crew to maintain them made of Reg and Res Force members.

Units close to Petawawa or get funding to send troops from outside the area to work with 2Horse to learn how the M777 works and train to be part of the gun crew on their exercises so the troops are trained and deployable if the guns are ever needed to be forward deployed again.

The same can be done at Gagetown, Wainwright, and at Shilo.

Only other way I can see the Res RCA units getting guns is buy used guns from the USA Army as they seem to have more current guns and usually have spares or war stock.

Not sure Meaford is templated for 155. Any updates out here?

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

Not sure Meaford is templated for 155. Any updates out here?

I was meaning pool the 105mm guns, not the M777s
sorry for any confusion

 

[suffolkowner]

archive.ph

from the above article

"For instance, France has debated replenishing artillery stocks after sending 16 CAESAR howitzer cannons to Ukraine this summer, but it has faced limits on production capacity. “Simply, there are not that many companies in Europe that are capable of doing a gun barrel,” Grand said."

a universal problem it seems

 

[Kirkhill]

archive.ph

from the above article

"For instance, France has debated replenishing artillery stocks after sending 16 CAESAR howitzer cannons to Ukraine this summer, but it has faced limits on production capacity. “Simply, there are not that many companies in Europe that are capable of doing a gun barrel,” Grand said."

a universal problem it seems

Sounds like a business opportunity.

 

[Spencer100]

I'm going to throw this out there. All the talk of guns, cannons and howitzers is this not a case of "fighting the last war" or in this instant the one going on now? Is tube artillery really going to be as big as it looks right now?
yes the Russian and Ukrainians are using a ton on it. But is that a case of that is what they have not of what they would like? (yes there will always be a need for tube artillery) But would not investing in different fires not be the away to go? MLRS etc?

 

[Spencer100]

Sounds like a business opportunity.

Yes and no. France will never buy something that would require someone else to tool up a factory. They would just pump money into NEXTER instead.

This is going to be one of those times everyone pours money into artillery manufacturing just to see it all dry up in a few years.

I would never invest money for Canada to have a manufacturing capacity for howitzers.

If I was CAF king I would buy something off the self. But invest heavily in the C2, software and IT tech to make it work in the future battle space.

The under reported part of the Ukraine war I feel is massive amount of intelligence, control and targeting on the Ukraine side. The data flow from US, UK and NATO assets and Ukrainian sources has got to be on an unheard of scale. Just seeing the flight tracker of JSTARS, AWACS, P-8, etc give an idea of the size.

 

[GR66]

Yes and no. France will never buy something that would require someone else to tool up a factory. They would just pump money into NEXTER instead.

This is going to be one of those times everyone pours money into artillery manufacturing just to see it all dry up in a few years.

I would never invest money for Canada to have a manufacturing capacity for howitzers.

If I was CAF king I would buy something off the self. But invest heavily in the C2, software and IT tech to make it work in the future battle space.

The under reported part of the Ukraine war I feel is massive amount of intelligence, control and targeting on the Ukraine side. The data flow from US, UK and NATO assets and Ukrainian sources has got to be on an unheard of scale. Just seeing the flight tracker of JSTARS, AWACS, P-8, etc give an idea of the size.

Agreed. But I'd add ammo to the list. Ammo consumption is ALWAYS higher in war than projected. Domestic production capability of your key munitions will keep you in the fight (logistics wins wars).

 

[Spencer100]

Agreed. But I'd add ammo to the list. Ammo consumption is ALWAYS higher in war than projected. Domestic production capability of your key munitions will keep you in the fight (logistics wins wars).

oh yes to making the ammo. Of all types.

 

[suffolkowner]

NATO actually needs a plan on munitions and war stocks for every member. Right now no company is stepping up until they have firm contracts which makes sense. Does Canada need its own artillery munitions production? It doesn't seem to make sense that we would need to make our own artillery considering we'd be lucky to buy 150 towed and SP combined

 

[KevinB]

NATO actually needs a plan on munitions and war stocks for every member. Right now no company is stepping up until they have firm contracts which makes sense. Does Canada need its own artillery munitions production? It doesn't seem to make sense that we would need to make our own artillery considering we'd be lucky to buy 150 towed and SP combined

Many companies have actually put on multiple shifts and doubled if not tripled production. Few are admitting it publicly, as they don’t want a glut in the market and the price driven down for any negotiations.

No one wants to be beholding to anyone for basic artillery ammunition, one can see the export issues facing Germany with some of the Swiss components and complete munitions. You want to be able to do what you want with your munitions, not ask someone for permission to buy or give to someone else in need.