C3 Howitzer Replacement

[Petard]

I spoke with a now retired RSM about the lack of replacement parts and spare parts for the C3 105mm gun.
I did not understand everything he told me but here was the basics of the conversation

He replied in a typical  RSM  fashion and a quick education and lesson on the guns and replacement programs.

Another country ( not naming it, it was from  South America) was going thru the process of  manufacturing a new version of the 105mm , very close if not exact copy of the C3 used by the Canadian Forces. He said there was talk at higher levels of command about purchasing some guns from that country's manufacturer but then the Treasury Board and others got involved,  no Canadian content,  no deal would be made.

just a chat over a drink in the mess.
just some thoughts and opinions

The gun he was probably talking about is the Chilean version of the C3, which they call the M101/33. It might have been an option awhile ago, but I think they've done away with them a few years ago. I don't think the Canadian content was the main factor it was avoided, more likely it was that no one saw the urgency of the need anymore. Besides which, there are other options besides more of the same, which I suppose is what this thread is supposed to be about

Something to keep in mind too, is that Reg Force Arty Regt's now have to cover off a considerable number of STA tasks, certainly more than they did pre-Afghanistan, but with no increase in personnel. So it does make sense to have a viable plan for Reservists to fill in the gaps in the gun Bty's. As has been mentioned, there doesn't seem to be a plan to do that, other than the catch as catch can one 2 RCHA has improvised

Perhaps it's worth looking at a 10/90 type of solution again, and posting the personnel that are supposed to be in the leadership positions of the hollow gun Troops in each Reg Force Regt, to the Primary Reserve units that are supposed to FG the remainder. When it comes time to support their nearest Reg Force Regt those Reg Force members and Reservists stand up the Troop as a whole from that region (much as JeffB seen during the collective training event in 2015). I know from my experience with it the early 90's the results, especially in turn out/availability of Class A pers, was impressive.  The example of the arty units in 31 and 32 Bde forming a Bty, and 33 Bde for the other one, and actually deploy with 2 RCHA for 2 weeks, I think is a good start point (4 Div and Army G3 should try to nudge 2 RCHA's training schedule a bit to line up better with end of RST to support this), but I'm talking more along the lines of being more involved with work up training, including Maple Resolve type Ex's and actually deploying as well, as formed Troops from a given region.

 

[jeffb]

It would be hard to nudge 2 RCHA's training schedule much. July and August are spent supporting national tasks and leave. The first two weeks are a write off for collective training with support to Ex Collaborative Spirit, Terry Fox Run and Ironwarrior (Ironman). There's a right shoulder as well of supporting RCR and RCD exercises. Therefore, there's really only a 2-3 week period at the end of September to Thanksgiving where 2 RCHA can run Regimental training. Batteries need some time shakeout at well. After APS, that usually means that Bty training events are running in August and around the other events in September.

It all comes down to priorities and where you accept risk. I for one would not want to accept risk supporting live fire CT with maneuver arms in late Oct/Nov over PRes artillery training. I'd argue that a better time if someone is looking to carve out some ammo and resources would be at the start of the fiscal year in that period just after University exams finish. It would exactly be progressive from RST but it could serve as the PRes final CT event. 

 

[daftandbarmy]

I'd argue that a better time if someone is looking to carve out some ammo and resources would be at the start of the fiscal year in that period just after University exams finish. It would exactly be progressive from RST but it could serve as the PRes final CT event.

The whole Army should do that.  Perfect timing. :nod:

 

[Petard]

It would be hard to nudge 2 RCHA's training schedule much. July and August are spent supporting national tasks and leave.
It all comes down to priorities and where you accept risk. I for one would not want to accept risk supporting live fire CT with maneuver arms in late Oct/Nov over PRes artillery training. I'd argue that a better time if someone is looking to carve out some ammo and resources would be at the start of the fiscal year in that period just after University exams finish. It would exactly be progressive from RST but it could serve as the PRes final CT event.

April might be a bit too soon, IIRC, I think mid May at the earliest is about when most of the P Res Bde's are typically ready for a CT event (but transition to RST instead)

The RST training cycle could probably start about mid June, then ending just before labour day, without a CT event at the end of the summer, which would be a good thing IMO. First it would line up better with the PLQ courses, and more importantly it address a deficiency in essential P Res Arty training. The way it stands right now, almost all of the local defence training has been made supplemental, so isn't covered during RST.  DP 1s don't get trained on any support weapons other than C9 (not even C6 or hand grenades, never mind anti-armour), and the DP 2 Det 2 IC and the DP 3 Det Comd courses don't really cover local defence either. So by allowing them to to return to unit and develop those skills, as well as the normal progressive BTS training, possibly doing training with their nearest Reg Force Regt as well, it'll allow them to confirm it hopefully with live fire during a major CT event in May (prior to the long weekend).

I'm not sure why this hasn't been attempted, since over the past few years there have been some bizarre CT event dates, I think in 2017 some Bde's even had their own dates separate from the others, right in the middle of RST. The only push back I can remember from when it was suggested before, is because of the availability of those attending high school
FWIW, I agree, it should be tried, better yet with digitized guns in the P Res.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The Reserves schedules are locked into the civilian world and it's just a reality that's not going to change. 

 

[jeffb]

The Reserves schedules are locked into the civilian world and it's just a reality that's not going to change.

Tracking and I totally get it. And thus we come back full circle to the problem of what exactly is the role of the PRes? Is it there primarily for individual augmentation on deployments, DomOps and to provide a presence across Canada or is it there to force generate sub or sub-sub units (or higher)? If the answer is that it is the first than having a mechanism such as Op REINFORCEMENT that 4 Div had going on a few years ago (Class B funding for PRes individual augmentation of Reg Force units during CT events) is likely the way to go in my view. That way, individuals are able to slot into Reg Force training events as it suits their personal lives while getting literally the same training as their Reg Force counterparts instead of some sort of half-baked Level 5 training. I'm a firm believer that that solution was on the right path but that it needed to be extended slightly to allow PRes members who were slotted to attend CT events (Unit Level up to MAPLE RESOLVE) to arrive a few weeks before said event to participate in the garrison work-up training, IBTS, etc. If institutionalized then it could become just another step within a unit's/Bde's Battle Procedure that PRes augmentees have to do the gateway training and deliver said training accordingly.

(Straying off topic here I know).

 

[quadrapiper]

Tracking and I totally get it. And thus we come back full circle to the problem of what exactly is the role of the PRes? Is it there primarily for individual augmentation on deployments, DomOps and to provide a presence across Canada or is it there to force generate sub or sub-sub units (or higher)? If the answer is that it is the first than having a mechanism such as Op REINFORCEMENT that 4 Div had going on a few years ago (Class B funding for PRes individual augmentation of Reg Force units during CT events) is likely the way to go in my view. That way, individuals are able to slot into Reg Force training events as it suits their personal lives while getting literally the same training as their Reg Force counterparts instead of some sort of half-baked Level 5 training. I'm a firm believer that that solution was on the right path but that it needed to be extended slightly to allow PRes members who were slotted to attend CT events (Unit Level up to MAPLE RESOLVE) to arrive a few weeks before said event to participate in the garrison work-up training, IBTS, etc. If institutionalized then it could become just another step within a unit's/Bde's Battle Procedure that PRes augmentees have to do the gateway training and deliver said training accordingly.

(Straying off topic here I know).

Addressing the same points: might be some benefit from running the numbers as far as "personal commitments at X years in the PRes:" years one through four-six are full of students, so an attenuated winter and loaded summer training scheme is probably ideal. After that, it might switch: might have a better chance of your now-employed Reservist getting time off for a course if it's not during school breaks.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The Reserves schedules are locked into the civilian world and it's just a reality that's not going to change.

May to August is a pretty good time frame annually to provide some good training for reservists.

I went through Phase II and III Infantry over the course of two summers and emerged a qualified Pl Comd, with the rank of Lt, at the tender age of 20. Some years later I did a pretty good 2 week ACT course and was promoted to Major. During various summer collective training events I commanded platoons and companies in the field to build up my OJT.

There's no reason why we can't churn out qualified NCMs/NCOs during those same two, or maybe three, summers, including the intervening 'inter-summer' training back at the units, especially if Reg F collective training events are scheduled so trainees can get some solid OJT.

 

[Old Sweat]

In the mid-seventies the army developed and introduced a three phase programme called the Reserve Officer University Training Programme. We managed to cover all the important POs of the regular training system in three phases while the regulars needed four by careful design. In fact I know that in gunner land we produced some very capable individuals including a certain officer cadet Leslie. (He may have gone regular some time during his three years, so don't bet the bank on this.)

 

[Petard]

I don't think JeffB's points are off topic at all

Surely some better method can be implemented than the "half baked" method being used (as he rightly describes it), and better equipment is needed to support that.
I get the bulk of a Reserve unit availability is tied to the rhythms of work and school, but at some point units will need to be able to FG individuals at least, if not a (sub-) sub unit, or there really is no purpose to having Reserves at all. If we can assume that's valid, then anything that minimizes the training delta between Reg Force and Primary Reservists is a step in the right direction, since the methods artillery use now are getting more complex compared to legacy methods Reservists are currently limited to

One of these changes relates to deploying guns with an (automatic) Azimuth Pointing System (APS)
It drives me nuts when I hear someone say "a gun is a gun", as a means to justifying the C3 as good enough. That's as idiotic as saying "a plane is a plane". The difference between a gun with say LINAPS deploying and one using legacy optic sights and survey instruments is enormous. The speed of occupation alone is significant, especially at night, but it takes a lot of practice to learn those differences for Recce and occupation drills, as well as safety. So much so I believe it's worth mounting some kind of APS on the C3 and LG1's, so those Reservists available to take on a task with a Reg unit at least have the basics worked out.

It would be best if all the Reserve units could be equipped with guns that had APS, but if that's not possible at least do some kind of whole fleet management approach then. I worked with a US National Guard Stryker Bn that was going into the equivalent of high readiness status, after which the majority of their high speed equipment would go to another unit as they went into a reconstitution phase. Maybe something similar could be adopted by Cdn units. For example, 7 Tor, 11 Fd and 56 Fd are tasked for two years to provide a complete Gun Tp, a dismounted ATG and an LCMR Det. During that time for the first year they go from legacy occupation drills with C3 to learning how to do it with APS. At least one LCMR to a unit with that task (think that's 7 Tor). Year two those Reservists who are available fill in Class B with the Reg Force Regt they're supporting, the remainder of the unit continues training with legacy equipment while the APS and LCMR go to the next units. The following units would be 30 Fd, 42nd, and the 49th. This way 2 RCHA always has, as a minimum, another Troop that can deploy as needed

The ROTP method for officer training OS describes, somewhat still goes on with officer candidates attending DP 1.1, but that only covers the legacy methods of occupation; they need additional training too once back with their units.

Something needs to give here, because it sure sounds like what's going on is not guaranteeing the availability of FG individuals, with some kind of current skill set, never mind sub-sub units

 

[Colin Parkinson]

At each unit there will be individuals who will be free to deploy at various times with the Regular Force. Reserve units should have an electronic list of members willing to deploy and for how long. To get on that list member agrees to be ready to deploy within 2 weeks notification and for the time period they have indicated. Member responsible for advising unit if temporarily medically unfit or unavailable.

Have the list based on a shared excel spreadsheet, the member lists qualifications they have (vehicles, tracks, gun, tech, sigs, etc) , rank into fields. . 1 RCHA wants a troop of gunners, they select desired qualifications, input into the shared excel sheet, up pops qualified members, invites for those members sent to them and their unit. Invites expire in X time, acceptance starts the ball rolling. Have some preapproved requirements done (extra kit could be already drawn, but stored at the unit to reduce wear) medical, dental checks, etc. Member is on their way in short order.     

 

[Petard]

At each unit there will be individuals who will be free to deploy at various times with the Regular Force...Member is on their way in short order.     

I think that's they way it's supposed to work, but..
Right now they'll show up completely unfamiliar with the main way the howitzer they're going to work on operates, even the general sequence of activities for occupation will be foreign to most of them. Save for the few that might of been on a M777 conversion course, improvised by the nearest Reg Force unit, but have had no practice on since
Trying to synchronize an Op plan to take into account that kind of training delta, and variations, is not going to be easy in the best of circumstances. Something more deliberate than a "just in case" self identification list is needed IMO; I've seen how hit or miss that actually works in practice. Typically the number of pers that self ID can grow significantly if they know it is for an actual task and not a maybe. I believe what is needed is equipment among the Reserves that supports building up a common experience level among them as much as possible, and a routine of deploying with the nearest Reg Force unit to develop that skill   

If replacing the C3 is unrealistic, at least make it more suitable for the task; a digital fire control system on the C3 would at least help towards building a more relevant baseline of training
(Just trying to keep this relevant to the thread)

 

[FJAG]

. . .
I get the bulk of a Reserve unit availability is tied to the rhythms of work and school, but at some point units will need to be able to FG individuals at least, if not a (sub-) sub unit, or there really is no purpose to having Reserves at all. If we can assume that's valid, then anything that minimizes the training delta between Reg Force and Primary Reservists is a step in the right direction, since the methods artillery use now are getting more complex compared to legacy methods Reservists are currently limited to
. . .

My point exactly. We always have a fall-back in that we can call individuals to active service, but we never do that.

I disagree with the band-aid ideas of units having lists of ready volunteers. Our system shouldn't be run in a haphazard manner that depends on the whims of what are now dysfunctional "regiments" and "battalions". The whole system is more than ripe for a major and radical revision.

:cheers:

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The problem is that people who join want to have some identity within a community, the regular army has already pretty divorced itself from the public, cutting the remaining links with communities might have unintended consequence. The Reserves also have to market themselves to the public to get people to give up their free time willingly. What does the reg force have to offer that's better than the Reserves with their antique regiments that offers community links, history, comradery, funky hats, cap badges and buddies to work and drink with?
perhaps the regs need to take a hard look also at how they run courses and ask why you can't teach some basic repetitive skillsets on an artillery piece to someone who already is familiar with a simpler one. They used to take people from C2's to tracked SPG's which is quite the leap.   

 

[GnyHwy]

The youngsters reaching us as recruits these days live in a digital world. Learning to use digital equipment is not that difficult for them if taught right.

By all means buy 120s for the infantry but not the artillery. We'll never get the skills back.

The newer generation catching on to digital easily is very true, probably teaching the instructors a thing or two on some occasions. Good thing our current AIGs aren't as crusty and resistant to change as the old guard.

I don't have much concerns with not getting our skills back or changing systems. We are used to being "adaptive" and gunnery is gunnery, regardless of platform IMO. We transitioned to the 777 very quickly, with Res F included.   

Canada's problems lie in both personnel and equipment.  We lack modern equipment for more than a reinforced battlegroup.

My 30 second assessment:

1. The Army needs an inexpensive indirect fire platform that is common to both components that can be used both for training and deployed - a towed 105mm meets that need;
2. That platform needs to be integrated into the fire control system so there is common training on necessary supporting tools;

I don't believe the 105mm even comes close to meeting our need, especially in the growth potential category where is gets extremely low marks, essentially 0. The only reason they'll even exist 50 years from now is because there is a lot of them.

If we talk digital FCS, a proper 120 is arguably closer to the 777 than any 105, solely because of guided extended range ammo. Having your systems in place for this is probably the largest training gap, for Arty, Sigs and EME.

Cheers! 

 

[a_majoor]

If 105 continues to exist, it will be because it is being repurposed and taking on other roles.

A few possibilities:

Using a wheeled platform (like some of the ones showcased upthread) and a magazine autoloader similar to the Swedish FH77, the 105 becomes an air defence platform. This is especially true using the hypervelocity rounds similar to those already being created for the 155 (adapted from the research done for electromagnetic railguns). High speed, flat trajectories, greater range and large explosive payload compared to 25mm automatic cannon and similar weapons will make this another layer in an air defence shield needing to deal with high speed missiles, attack helicopters and other threats.

Through tube missile launcher. The 105mm artillery shell is replaced by some form of guided missile or even drone. This exchanges weight of fire with long range, accurate fire. As a variation, the 105mm rounds are not explosive payloads at all, but some form of sensor which can be lofted quickly and at great ranges. The 105 becomes a sort of spotting platform.

Once again using the hypervelocity rounds, the 105 is able to engage targets at double the range current 105mm cannon can. Guided "Excalibur light" rounds allow accurate fire even at extreme ranges.

While you can always argue a 155 can do the same jobs better (and it is true), there may be cost advantages for giving roles like this to a 105mm, and any platform can physically carry more individual 105mm rounds than 155mm rounds.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Since it's clear we are not going to 120mm mortars, it makes sense to stick to the 105mm and buy the upgraded M119's and perhaps do it in batches. With modern ammunition you are looking at ranges of 17-19km, the digitization will make training more useful and fires quicker and more accurate. We are painfully short on indirect fire weapons. Having the Reserves equipped with a modern 105mm means having some ability to quickly surge more tubes into a conflict. It's also my understanding that in the recent conflicts there has been global shortages of 155mm shells. Having the 105mm means that you are likely to have stocks of 105mm if there is a 155 shortage again.
The other advantage of 105mm is that your live fire training costs are less, the safety areas are smaller and we could actually use a smaller gun tractor, which would be good for some Reserve units, who can't get the new vehicles into their armouries anymore. Logistically, the 105mm makes good sense for the Reserves. A surge of new and reliable equipment won't hurt recruiting either. 

 

[Petard]

I'm skeptical there'll be a lot of money going to the Reserves to replace the C3 anytime soon, but the barrels will need to be replaced in the near future as a few have developed cracks near the muzzle. Canada has long since lost the capacity to punch out barrels of that calibre, and very unlikely anyone is interested in starting it up. The best choice would be to get some additional LG1 barrels from Nexter or the M119's from BAE, and fit them to the C3 carriage, something that could be done at 202 Workshop or (Esquimalt's) Fleet Maintenance Facility

As for potential, they could fire the Rheinmetal-Denel's 105mm Igala ammunition, and the LAHAT can be fired out of it as well. But I think in the end the decision won't be made on developing it's  Operational potential, although robust the C3 is just too heavy, rather it'll be about just sustaining a limited training system (and being able to do gun salutes).

Not that there's a hope in hell of Canada procuring the gun in the attachment, it seems to of been an unfortunate failed experiment by GDLS Canada, it does include a description of RDM ammunition compared to legacy 105 ammo (not that Canada would buy the newer type of 105 ammo either). The attachment is pretty much just for ref for what's out there.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Sadly we need a bunch of Reservists killed by a barrel rupture, a Royal Commission and public embarrassment to get the money to replace them. 

 

[Old Sweat]

Sadly we need a bunch of Reservists killed by a barrel rupture, a Royal Commission and public embarrassment to get the money to replace them.

The odds of all three, or even one occurring, are pretty slim.

In May 1963 I was associated with a premature (a round detonating 15m outside the barrel of a 105 in Gagetown. Six members of the detachment were wounded and the gun ended up in second line repair. Despite having just left the gun line, I was detailed as a member of the SI. We triangulated the location of the burst by sticking straws in the holes in the ammunition boxes and used the firing table MV to determine the fuze functioned .05 seconds after firing. This indicated the delay element had set off the burst.

Well, obviously the finely tuned artillery world kicked into action, not. The incident was blamed by those who were not there, but knew better, on a cracked round and incompetent troops failing to inspect the ammunition. I can tell you that was crap as the round made the characteristic wham and smoke cloud of an airburst and any splinters we picked up were characteristically small. It took three more prematures over the summer, the last of which killed a recruit in the RCA Depot, for the army to freeze the fuze and initiate procurement of an improved model.