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C3 Howitzer Replacement

I believe that the 6x6 might do better off road but the 8x8 handles highways at higher speeds (>90 km/h). The Volvo 6x6 is limited to 70 km/h.

ive driven them through 2 feet of mud uphill so the artics can work off road, no idea on the 8x8 straight
From the article it looks like commonality with the fleet of logistics H2 8x8s already in Swedish service. I wouldn't doubt that there are also some stability and robustness improvements and longer range (800kms v 650). OTOH the 8 x 8 is a more complex chassis.

I'm still not an overwhelmed fan of either the Archer or the RCH 155 on Boxer principally because of the low on-board ammo count and the complexity of "bombing up" the turrets. I've recently watched an RCH 155 being resupplied with ammo and it looked worse than Archer. That's something that really needs working on.

I'm also not so fond of all the advertisements as to shoot and scoot. They make it sound like it provides some invulnerability that other systems do not have. IMHO the improvements in STA - including UAVs and OWUAVs - negates much of the shoot and scoot advantage with the old catchphrase of "you move; you die." These guns have very distinct physical signatures and will be high-priority sought after targets. I can't see these guns deploying without a robust dedicated anti-air capability/plan.

Don't get me wrong, they're still better than an M777, - especially the L52 barrel - but they aren't Superman.

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seems like with drones there will need to be some sort of integral anti drone system but the alternative is to remain vulnerable to counter battery fire? Perhaps in Ukraine the danger from drones is greater than that of counter battery fire now?
 
Thoughts on the M327 mortar?
No!!!

Don't just try to cobble together a solution that's cheap and easy. If there's one thing that I want to get across in this forum its that the removal of mortars from infantry battalions and given to the artillery was a colossal, fiscally-driven cock-up that is still screwing things up two decades later.

Artillery has a purpose which is to rapidly mass fires where needed. That can't be done with mortars no matter how people like to quote new improved ranges for 120mm ammunition. If you can't afford a decent gun system then give gunners UAVs and OWUAVs and air defence etc. Give the mortars back to the infantry where they belong.

Just a small overview. The Canadian army has enough RegF and ARes personnel to man two divisions (assuming not everyone is on parental leave, stress leave or whatever other restrictions and the manifest is fully manned). Whether you look at that as one division to deploy and one to provide sustainment and train replacements for deployment doesn't matter. That's the manpower pool you have to play with. How many you actually deploy at any given time is a matter of preference, but right now we equip our artillery on the basis of fielding a full battlegroup (with one 6-gun battery and an STA and AD element that is evolving) and another contingency battlegroup with minimal arty support (which generally means no guns)

In any proper thinking army that looks at the tactical needs of a division you need as a minimum three, better yet four, 18-gun battalions (54 to 72 guns @155mm calibre). Add in at least one STA battalion (lets say a dozen radars (LCMR and MRR mix and a dozen SUAVs); an air defence battalion (18-24 launchers) and a battalion of 18 mixed HIMARS and OWUAV launchers. Add in another 50% again, as a minimum, as the stay-at-home training cadre for the second division and as replacements for combat losses. That type of organization will eat up every existing RegF PY and every ARes authorized position to man.

Right now, all those PYs and authorized ARes have an operational stock of a total of 24 x M777s, some MRRs, LCMRs and SUAVs and a twinkle in their eye that the system will kick out some rocket launchers and an air def bty or two before hell freezes over.

My thought process is to equip the army with what it needs for combat, not what might make a poor training aid. You can't deploy training aids to war. People will die if you do. If you don't want your people to die then you either beg and borrow gear from other folks (who might need it for themselves) or you stay at home.

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My thinking was that towed and rifled mortars would be under the purview of artillery, and smoothbore mortars that can be packed up be infantry. So the Soltam K6/M120 120mm mortar, L16 81mm, M224 or M6 60mm and maybe even a 51mm would all be infantry, and the M327 would be artillery.
 
My thinking was that towed and rifled mortars would be under the purview of artillery, and smoothbore mortars that can be packed up be infantry. So the Soltam K6/M120 120mm mortar, L16 81mm, M224 or M6 60mm and maybe even a 51mm would all be infantry, and the M327 would be artillery.
Remember what the fundamental differences are as between a gun and a mortar. Guns generally fire at a flatter trajectory, have a stronger chamber to allow heavy pressure which equals faster time of flight and range. The heavier barrel of the gun also leads to better accuracy. The rifling in a mortar is immaterial as is its being towed.

The thing is to think of indirect fires in both layers and range bands. The initial layer and the shortest range goes to mortars which provide intimate support to their battalion. Its guaranteed to be there ready to support the battalion at all times. It does not integrate well into the fire of other battalion's mortars. They basically play in their own space.

Artillery comes with a host of capabilities which an infantry battalion can't afford to support - it has other priorities and tasks. With its longer range, accuracy and communications network, artillery can range widely across the front and mass fires well with other guns. A brigade and even a division or corps can concentrate the fires of all of its artillery wherever it wants on a moments notice. Add in to that surveillance and target acquisition artillery, air defence artillery and rocket and missile artillery all integrated with a communication and coordination capability that allows artillery to strike deep into the rear of an opponent and break them up before they get close enough to be engaged by mortars. In effect guns are the next layer and rockets and missiles the third.

The point is that just because mortars are a type of indirect fire, doesn't mean they are part of an artillery function. They work well doing what they are designed to do, work with the direct fire and manoeuvre elements that are organic to the battalion. They are part of a complete team at the battalion commanders beck and call which are able to operate well within the battalion's area of operations.

Sure, you can have gunners man mortars - and some countries do - but why would you? I'll go back to the early parts of Advancing with Purpose and mortars were taken away from the infantry (and mech battalions still don't have them back.) No one was happy with that - neither the grunts nor the gunners. The grunts didn't want to lose the mortars, and the gunners didn't want to have them.

It was a fiscal PY exercise taking people from the infantry for various other roles including creating CMTC. The artillery was given no extra people to take over 9 mortar platoons (and in fact they didn't take over 9 platoons. The initial plan was for each RegF artillery regiment to have one mortar battery which meant 12 mortars for a brigade where there had been 24. But even worse came about in 2005. Each regiment had 18 guns at the time - 12 M109s and 6 LG1s - but they were then cut back to two six-gun batteries who also had to man the mortars in a weapon's locker format. When the M777 appeared, no extra people came with them so the six seven-man detachments evolved into four ten-man detachments - so eight guns per regiment plus a few mortars in the stores for "just in case".

Once again, the concept turned around deploying battle groups. In 2002 for Op Apollo the artillery was only required to provide a 4-tube mortar group. The winds and weather in the mountains made the mortars a poor choice to deploy. Much later in 2006 and thereafter each 10-man M777 detachment also had two 81mm mortars which were used whenever appropriate for close in targets that would benefit from high angle fire. Batteries went out with either four or six guns and eight or twelve mortars. It's a very silly system that barely worked for an insurgency and would collapse in a matter of hours in high intensity combat.

The 81mm mortars are still hanging around but haven't gone back to the mech battalions because there simply aren't any infantry PYs for them as it stands. I mean does anyone in their right mind actually think that a bunch of gunners in a soft skinned truck (all the TLAVs are gone and who knows how many ACSVs the arty will get) and an 81mm mortar are going to accompany a LAV battalion? Whose minding the M777s while they are swanning around trying not to be killed?

Honestly, speaking as a former gunner, I don't want to see any mortars going to the artillery. It would perpetuate a stupid idea and probably lead some of the bean counters to conclude "that's good enough; we don't need any of the expensive guns or their ammunition." And folks will die. Right now we have more than enough 81mm mortars for the light battalions. Get some new mortars for the mech battalions - none of that towed shit - get them a proper modified ACSV with a 120mm Nemo mortar turret.

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Which is why all of this to me is just stressing the need to rework the entire CA.

Until you have a concept of your force, and a way to implement it, nothing will change. Tried this in the mid 80s. 1RCR and G&SF didn;t last a tear!

Part of the problem I see is non of the 3 Maneuver Bde’s in the CA want to ‘lose’ status, so the quagmire just keeps getting worse.

Someone needs to force the reformation. Getting rid of the non combat formations, and restricting the Army (as a whole) into 2 Divisions. There will need to be a huge staff bloodletting - Res Units getting chopped into Companies or Platoons, and the subsequent removal of senior Officer and NCO positions.

But also turning the Reserves into an integral part of Operational units.

Only then will equipment become a reality and a true mission given that will ensure that there are more than enough recruits for the jobs required.
 
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