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C3 Howitzer Replacement

Look you can get stuff fast if you want it bad enough. Ordered and delivered in the same year.


24 Thunder K9 howitzers delivered.
These are from existing stocks. mostly to start the training and familiarisation ball going. SK is very happy to work all sorts of deals to get a sale.
 
Look you can get stuff fast if you want it bad enough. Ordered and delivered in the same year.


24 Thunder K9 howitzers delivered.
Estonia needs to wait for 2nd Quarter 2023 for the HIMARS they just ordered - new production.

Despite what the media seems to be portraying, there really is no shortage of Arms or Munitions - there is generally a shortage of paying customers...
 
Estonia needs to wait for 2nd Quarter 2023 for the HIMARS they just ordered - new production.

Despite what the media seems to be portraying, there really is no shortage of Arms or Munitions - there is generally a shortage of paying customers...
I found it particulalry laughable to read an article that Germany's ammunition supplies were down to a matter of days fire support ... and then read an article which said that the Swiss were forbidding the Germans from handing over to the Ukrainians large amounts of Swiss manufactured 155mm ammunition which the Germans had in stock.

🍻
 
I found it particulalry laughable to read an article that Germany's ammunition supplies were down to a matter of days fire support ... and then read an article which said that the Swiss were forbidding the Germans from handing over to the Ukrainians large amounts of Swiss manufactured 155mm ammunition which the Germans had in stock.

🍻
Was it not Swiss controls that slowed the Gepards from being sent to Ukraine because the 35mm ammunition is made by Oerlikon (Rheinmetall Air Defence)? I thought I heard something about getting 35mm from South America or something. I guess Canada didn't have any left after getting rid of the Skyguard systems.
 

Brits taking the AS-90s out of service earlier.​

Expected to advance the purchase of more MRLS type systems to enhance LRPF "deepfires".

Army could rush in new rockets as Ukraine war exposes Britain's 'out of date' artillery​

Ben Wallace says years of campaigning in Iraq and Afghanistan has left the traditional war fighting role of the army 'neglected'

ByDominic Nicholls, ASSOCIATE EDITOR1 December 2022 • 9:00pm


Ben Wallace was speaking in Italy on HMS Albion, one of Britain’s amphibious assault ships CREDIT: JANEK SKARZYNSKI/AFP
The army could rush new rockets into service after the war in Ukraine has shown Britain's current artillery system is “hopelessly out of date” the Defence Secretary has said.
Ben Wallace said years of campaigning in Iraq and Afghanistan has left the traditional war fighting role of the army “neglected” and in dire need of modernisation.
The war in Ukraine has shown how one of the army’s current artillery systems is “not good enough…short of range” and “outgunned by most of its peer group,” he added.
Plans to introduce new precision rocket systems could be brought forward as a result.
Speaking in Italy on HMS Albion, one of Britain’s amphibious assault ships, Mr Wallace said: “We’re investing 24 billion pounds into the Army's equipment programme (EP) between now and the end of the decade.
“That's a lot of money. Because quite rightly, the army needs to catch up.
“It has been neglected by quite a few people over the last two decades. So it needs to be modernised.
“We need to rapidly look at the lessons of Ukraine because they have actually given us an opportunity to see not only where we're vulnerable but actually have [we] got the balance of investment right within the Army. Are there too many of X and not enough of Y.”

Defence experts say the use of precision-guided long-range artillery has been instrumental in pushing back Russian troops in Ukraine.
In a new paper on the war in Ukraine, defence think tank Rusi says from April, the West “became Ukraine’s strategic depth”, and Kyiv’s troops “only robbed Russia of the initiative once long-range [missiles] brought Russian logistics under threat”.

Defence chiefs have long wanted to retire Britain’s ageing AS-90, a self-propelled artillery gun, which fires 155mm shells, in favour of increased numbers of the M270 multiple launch rocket system.
Britain has gifted six M270 MLRS plus ammunition to Ukraine, from a total of around 40 systems.
Mr Wallace said Britain’s AS-90 artillery system was out of date for the modern battlefield and not capable of providing “deep fires”; military terminology for long-range attacks.
Even taking into account stocks of precise weapons, Mr Wallace said: “we don't have enough deep fires and our deep fires aren't good enough”.
He said the extra money won from the Treasury for the MoD’s equipment plan could allow an earlier retirement date for AS-90.
“The AS-90 replacement programme is in [the EP] and it’s very important.
“If I can bring it forward I will.
“Our AS-90 is hopelessly out of date, short of range and outgunned by most of its peer group.”

He said AS-90 replacement was “one of the main programmes” in the MoD’s equipment plan.

Presumably the announcement leaves room for the purchase of some new 155s. The AS90 has a 39 calibre barrel compared to the 52 calibre barrels of the Cesar, Archer and PzH2000.

But the other side of the issue is the reference in the Oman training video to the RA Lt Guns having 3 and a half minutes from first shot, to engage the target, complete the fire mission, up trails and get under way. In my understanding that would mean that guns would only put half a dozen rounds down range, maybe a couple of dozen from a half battery, before having to move. That sounds to this civvy as if precision is going to become more important because you can't hang around long enough to drop a great weight of rounds on target over an extended period.


Not all of the additional £24billion is expected to be spent on new kit, The Telegraph understands.
About half will be ring-fenced as a reserve in case existing programmes run over budget, and for research and development projects.
An estimated £6 billion will be used to fill the ‘black hole’ in MoD finances caused by years of equipment overspends.
The remainder will be used for new equipment.
Some has already been allocated to the improvement programme for the RAF Chinook helicopter fleet, a move likely to save the taxpayer millions of pounds.
The £1.4 billion order, announced in May 2021, for the H-47 Extended Range-variant of Chinook had been expected to be delayed after the MoD said it needed to “reconsider the expenditure profile of this project”.
Extending delivery of the first of 14 aircraft by three years to 2030 was expected to cost £300 million, money that will not now be lost as the programme is brought back to its original time scale.
The new helicopters will take the number of Chinooks in RAF service up to 60.
 
My memory may be playing tricks on me but I seem to recall the AS 90 being trialed with a 52 cal. barrel.
The two objections at the time were they didn't think the new barrel replacement was all that urgent and of course cost.
 
My memory may be playing tricks on me but I seem to recall the AS 90 being trialed with a 52 cal. barrel.
The two objections at the time were they didn't think the new barrel replacement was all that urgent and of course cost.
You are correct sir.

 
The one area where I could possibly see Canada looking to a South Korean vs. American system is the K239 MLRS system.

The only reason I say that is that South Korea may be more willing to license rocket production out to Magellan Aerospace than Lock-Mart and having domestic production of our ammunition might be a plus.

Ideally you'd mount the system on the same chassis as the future Heavy Logistics Vehicle, Wheeled (which could also possibly be used as the chassis for a wheeled 155mm SPG platform and a Land Ceptor AD platform).

The ONLY way this would be a plus over HIMARS however is that if the Govermnent/Army take munition supply seriously and both build up major war stocks and maintain significant domestic production capacity. If not, then being able to tap into the rocket supply of the US Army would be the smarter way to go - even if we can't work a deal for domestic production. The other advantage of HIMARS is its ability to be loaded on the C-130.
 
The one area where I could possibly see Canada looking to a South Korean vs. American system is the K239 MLRS system.

The only reason I say that is that South Korea may be more willing to license rocket production out to Magellan Aerospace than Lock-Mart and having domestic production of our ammunition might be a plus.

Ideally you'd mount the system on the same chassis as the future Heavy Logistics Vehicle, Wheeled (which could also possibly be used as the chassis for a wheeled 155mm SPG platform and a Land Ceptor AD platform).

The ONLY way this would be a plus over HIMARS however is that if the Govermnent/Army take munition supply seriously and both build up major war stocks and maintain significant domestic production capacity. If not, then being able to tap into the rocket supply of the US Army would be the smarter way to go - even if we can't work a deal for domestic production. The other advantage of HIMARS is its ability to be loaded on the C-130.

#ORPHANFLEETFORCANADAAGAIN
 
The Aussie K9 deal even includes them being built at a facility in Australia. Seems like a no brainer to me but oh well.
I think ‘no brains’ is probably preferable to the ‘deliberately oblivious brains’ we have in Ottawa right now.
Was it not Swiss controls that slowed the Gepards from being sent to Ukraine because the 35mm ammunition is made by Oerlikon (Rheinmetall Air Defence)? I thought I heard something about getting 35mm from South America or something. I guess Canada didn't have any left after getting rid of the Skyguard systems.
I’ve told the story about my only exposure to the Skyguard system )when it was in service) a few times now.

If it still was, I imagine they’d have to be taken out of service to be refurbished/upgraded to be of real use - I imagine the wear & tear inside those barrels puts most other systems to shame…


But I imagine we could find some good use for those bad boys still. Even if it was a static defending a FOB in Afghanistan, or donating them to Ukraine for AD use against cruise missiles or drones…

those twin 35mm sent A LOT of hate down range, and whoever was on the receiving end was NOT walking it off
 
I take the SK K9/K10/K11 fleet as is with only the radio systems being adapted to whatever we need, and perhaps adopt the Norwegian mods. Work with SK to build a AD version as well.

I wonder if the K10 could be adapted to a ammunition resupply vehicle for the Leopards and purchase extra K11's to CP for the Armoured regiments. I don't know how much commonality there is between the K2 and the K9, but if there is enough, it might be worth buying the K2 ARV and AEV's to supplement our Leopard based ones.
 
#ORPHANFLEETFORCANADAAGAIN
Only somewhat really...in addition to South Korea both Poland and Norway have purchased the system and all three locations are areas we'd be highly likely to be doing our fighting if a major conflict breaks out vs Russia or North Korea/China.

Poland alone has contracted for more than double the number of K239 systems than the total of all HIMARS systems in use by all non-US nations (both existing users and future users).

As I said though, it would only make sense over HIMARS IF we went into the rocket production and stockpiling in a VERY serious way (which Canada being Canada a don't see happening).
 
Only somewhat really...in addition to South Korea both Poland and Norway have purchased the system and all three locations are areas we'd be highly likely to be doing our fighting if a major conflict breaks out vs Russia or North Korea/China.

Poland alone has contracted for more than double the number of K239 systems than the total of all HIMARS systems in use by all non-US nations (both existing users and future users).

As I said though, it would only make sense over HIMARS IF we went into the rocket production and stockpiling in a VERY serious way (which Canada being Canada a don't see happening).
If a conflict breaks out with North Korea/China, I'm not sure how staging from Norway or Poland is going to help us much...

As for Russia, I think we can safely say the conventional threat posed by Russia has been eliminated for now.

Perhaps not to the Ukrainians, but Russia can't exactly go pick a fight with one of their other neighbours now that Ukraine has decimated most of their units.



I agree though, not necessarily an orphan fleet.

With SK, Poland, and Australia fielding fleets of the K2, we wouldn't be sole users. I imagine other countries will adopt it as well.

That being said, I think it should be conditional that at least half the vehicles are licensed to be built here, and we generate the capability to produce our own ammo stocks.

If not, we should use whatever the Americans use for ease of commonality.
 
and SK would be happy with those terms, as they have been very flexible in sales. Hell we could get some reconditioned M101's on lease as well, till we get around to pulling our fingers out of our arse.
 
If a conflict breaks out with North Korea/China, I'm not sure how staging from Norway or Poland is going to help us much...
What I'm saying is that if a conflict breaks out with North Korea/China then any land forces we deploy will quite possibly be to South Korea...where they are the manufacturer and primary user of the K239. That means a large on-hand supply of rockets (and spare parts) available.

IF a conflict breaks out with Russia, and I agree that this risk is theoretically reduced given the current state of the Russian Army...but desperate situations can lead to desperate actions...then we will again likely be deploying to areas where other users of the system (Norway and Poland) are also operating.
 
What I'm saying is that if a conflict breaks out with North Korea/China then any land forces we deploy will quite possibly be to South Korea...where they are the manufacturer and primary user of the K239. That means a large on-hand supply of rockets (and spare parts) available.

IF a conflict breaks out with Russia, and I agree that this risk is theoretically reduced given the current state of the Russian Army...but desperate situations can lead to desperate actions...then we will again likely be deploying to areas where other users of the system (Norway and Poland) are also operating.
If a conflict breaks out in Korea, the SK won’t have any industry left in short order.

Not a place I would buy stuff from expecting resupply from there.
 
If a conflict breaks out in Korea, the SK won’t have any industry left in short order.

Not a place I would buy stuff from expecting resupply from there.
If that type of conflict breaks out, I sure don't expect resupply from the US either, they be to busy with their own. Likely you could get spare parts from Poland and Turkey
 
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