British Military Current Events

[dimsum]

Has anyone else noticed that after an initial small flurry when Future Soldier was announced a month ago, that there has been a dearth of commentary on it in the UK military media?

Xmas leave?

 

[FJAG]

Xmas leave?

Pundits don't take time off.

 

[AmmoTech90]

Anyone in the UK that has flexibility in their choice of small arms uses something other than the SA80/L85. Yes, it’s really that bad.

I used a L85A1 for 2.5 years as a garrison based instructor, shooting it on annual qualifications and having a huge number of stoppages. I then deployed with a L85A2. The unit had just received them around three months before and the RQ gave me one that had never be taken to the range. It performed very well compared to the A1. On multi-day CLPs when my head was stuck out the top of a truck I had it bungeed to the roof. Never failed when I had to use it after being dusted all day. Minimal cleaning kept it working. It is compact and easily slung out of the way, a great trait for a log soldier. It is heavy and the detailed stripping produces quite a few small parts. I was also underwhelmed by the SUSAT. Marginally better than an ELCAN.

I was much happier with the GPMG on top of the wagon. Of course I didn't have to carry except to get it up there. I did pity the Canadian convoys that didn't seem to have a MG on every vehicle.

I didn't go over to run CLPs, but after being stranded at a FOB for 8 days when I flew in for what was supposed to be four hour visit I figured 8 to 96 hour CLPs were a better bet, guaranteed to come back within 8 hours of the schedule. Tn Sqn was also happy to give one of their guys a break if some Canadian wanted to go.

 

[Ostrozac]

It is compact and easily slung out of the way, a great trait for a log soldier.

You’d think it would be compact, right? Because that was the major selling point of bullpup weapons in general. However, an L85A2 has a length of 78.5cm. A C8 with the stock collapsed is 76cm, and weighs about a kilogram less than it’s British counterpart.

The weapon that the UK needed was an AR-15 variant, but they were too proud to admit it — so instead they had British industry bullpup the decidedly inferior AR-18 design, and after multiple expensive rebuilds currently have a weapon that is serviceable, but still inferior. And the icing on the cake is that they didn’t even manage to save jobs, the factory that built the original L85 is now a housing project.

 

[AmmoTech90]

You’d think it would be compact, right? Because that was the major selling point of bullpup weapons in general. However, an L85A2 has a length of 78.5cm. A C8 with the stock collapsed is 76cm, and weighs about a kilogram less than it’s British counterpart.

In 29 years the CAF never gave me a C8 or a SMG. Weight wise a kg didn't matter to me as a loggie. Being able to climb in and out of vehicles and seacans. The shorter, more easily stowed weapon I have is better than the weapon I don't have.

 

[Good2Golf]

In 29 years the CAF never gave me a C8 or a SMG. Weight wise a kg didn't matter to me as a loggie. Being able to climb in and out of vehicles and seacans. The shorter, more easily stowed weapon I have is better than the weapon I don't have.

I’d say that, perhaps arguably, everyone but combat arms should have carbines, at least as a baseline. Perhaps if there’s a reason for long barrel for non-combat arms, issue that, but loggies, veh techs, MSE ops, aircrew, etc. all given them carbines. I heard some arguments that a C7 was more accurate at 200-300m…which for someone for whom a rifle is their bread and butter, sure, but realistically, A/B ech are probably going to be reasonably decent(good) to 50-75m with a short barrel. It seemed that the Army answer was that the C8 was for tankers and SOF.

 

[ArmyRick]

I’d say that, perhaps arguably, everyone but combat arms should have carbines, at least as a baseline. Perhaps if there’s a reason for long barrel for non-combat arms, issue that, but loggies, veh techs, MSE ops, aircrew, etc. all given them carbines. I heard some arguments that a C7 was more accurate at 200-300m…which for someone for whom a rifle is their bread and butter, sure, but realistically, A/B ech are probably going to be reasonably decent(good) to 50-75m with a short barrel. It seemed that the Army answer was that the C8 was for tankers and SOF.

Don't forget Canadian army priorities...Its easier to do drill for parades with a C7A1/A2 rifle than a C8

 

[Halifax Tar]

I’d say that, perhaps arguably, everyone but combat arms should have carbines, at least as a baseline. Perhaps if there’s a reason for long barrel for non-combat arms, issue that, but loggies, veh techs, MSE ops, aircrew, etc. all given them carbines. I heard some arguments that a C7 was more accurate at 200-300m…which for someone for whom a rifle is their bread and butter, sure, but realistically, A/B ech are probably going to be reasonably decent(good) to 50-75m with a short barrel. It seemed that the Army answer was that the C8 was for tankers and SOF.

C8s have more LCF than C7s. C7s are for POGs

 

[medicineman]

In 29 years the CAF never gave me a C8 or a SMG. Weight wise a kg didn't matter to me as a loggie. Being able to climb in and out of vehicles and seacans. The shorter, more easily stowed weapon I have is better than the weapon I don't have.

Only time I had an SMG was when I was in the PRes the first time along...usually had a C1, C7, C7 with a pistol...never had a C8. Getting in and out of trucks, ambulances, hauling people on litters, etc would be a lot easier with something not getting in the way as much. Having said that, not looking different from the others around you has an advantage of not standing out as a possible higher value target...

 

[FJAG]

Only time I had an SMG was when I was in the PRes the first time along...usually had a C1, C7, C7 with a pistol...never had a C8. Getting in and out of trucks, ambulances, hauling people on litters, etc would be a lot easier with something not getting in the way as much. Having said that, not looking different from the others around you has an advantage of not standing out as a possible higher value target...

The Sterling, especially with its short ten-round magazine, was terrific for tight places.



Shortly after this photo was taken, I gave mine up for a C1 for exactly the reason you mentioned.

 

[medicineman]

The Sterling, especially with its short ten-round magazine, was terrific for tight places.

View attachment 67880

Shortly after this photo was taken, I gave mine up for a C1 for exactly the reason you mentioned.

Did they call the 10 round mags suicide mags as well then?

 

[MilEME09]

Only time I had an SMG was when I was in the PRes the first time along...usually had a C1, C7, C7 with a pistol...never had a C8. Getting in and out of trucks, ambulances, hauling people on litters, etc would be a lot easier with something not getting in the way as much. Having said that, not looking different from the others around you has an advantage of not standing out as a possible higher value target...

briefly in about 2011 the CAF looked at a project to acquire PDW's for all CSS, and vehicle crews. Several options were explored including P90's (with matching pistols), MP7's (w/ pistol) or C8's (w/ pistol). The project cut the P90 and MP7 because the CAF didn't want to open a new logistics train. Then budget shelved the entire thing as Afghanistan slowed down, really as an MRT commander I'd love a C8, and by doctrine I should have a pistol while working on a repair, never going to happen though in our current state.

 

[medicineman]

briefly in about 2011 the CAF looked at a project to acquire PDW's for all CSS, and vehicle crews. Several options were explored including P90's (with matching pistols), MP7's (w/ pistol) or C8's (w/ pistol). The project cut the P90 and MP7 because the CAF didn't want to open a new logistics train. Then budget shelved the entire thing as Afghanistan slowed down, really as an MRT commander I'd love a C8, and by doctrine I should have a pistol while working on a repair, never going to happen though in our current state.

Thing I hated about the C7 and A1 variant was it was very difficult to bring to bear in the cab of a vehicle like an LSVW and even the Unimog I had in Croatia - the C8 or smaller weapon like an SMG (MP5 or 7) would have been more appropriate.

 

[FJAG]

Did they call the 10 round mags suicide mags as well then?

Can't recall ever hearing that.

 

[Good2Golf]

Don't forget Canadian army priorities...Its easier to do drill for parades with a C7A1/A2 rifle than a C8

Ah yes…everyone loves a parade! Even one where the CO has those carrying A2’s to collapse the butt and perform carbine drill. Take that, Army!

Only time I had an SMG was when I was in the PRes the first time along...usually had a C1, C7, C7 with a pistol...never had a C8. Getting in and out of trucks, ambulances, hauling people on litters, etc would be a lot easier with something not getting in the way as much. Having said that, not looking different from the others around you has an advantage of not standing out as a possible higher value target...

Perhaps if you don’t have have a beard to go along with your C8, the enemy will realize you’re someone who can’t reach out to 300-600m and won’t touch you?

 

[dimsum]

by doctrine I should have a pistol while working on a repair, never going to happen though in our current state.

Because we don't have enough pistols, or because we might as well bludgeon people with them?

 

[Kat Stevens]

Because we don't have enough pistols, or because we might as well bludgeon people with them?

Pistols are for officers and warrant officers dear boy, can't be letting the hoplites go about with sidearms, not cricket at all.

 

[MilEME09]

Because we don't have enough pistols, or because we might as well bludgeon people with them?

Mostly not enough, though they do just sit in the vault these days. As to your second comment, let me put a long enough retractable lanyard on it, and atleast I'll get multiple throws.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I liked a G3 with a folding stock when operating from covert vehicles.

Not that I ever had to do it, but you can easily shoot through the side of your door to address any issues with restive locals as required.

 

[Good2Golf]

Pistols are for officers and warrant officers dear boy, can't be letting the hoplites go about with sidearms, not cricket at all.

Although…..in AFG, my LCol insisted on carrying his C8 into high-level government meetings, even though we still had pistols and could safely lock up our carbines in our vehicles for the period, and the government office signs had pictures of a rifle (AK-47 lol) with a red line through it. He always got into it with the security forces for whatever reason (we were already two levels inside a fairly secure Govt facility). One time when he was being particularly insistent on carrying his C8, the security director came over to me and asked me to ‘tell your soldier to put his rifle away, please.’ He looked down at my Browning, and back up to me and said, “of course, an officer and his weapon is acceptable…but no rifles please.” I nodded with a polite ‘Tashakoor,’ and walked over to the Colonel and said, “hey boss, they’re not going to let you in if you keep the rifle with you.” He begrudgingly went back to our vehicle and locked up the C8, and poured for the rest of the meeting.