BMQ Reserves 2010 - 2017

[Eye In The Sky]

Really? Seriously? Let's just advise a new soldier that we find it OK to just do what ever we want, break rules, and ...

But what rule would a class a reservist be 'breaking' if they told their unit in October they might not make 1 single training weekend next FY?  Missing one event is not usually grounds within a QS to fail a course nor is it grounds to put someone on the NES list and proceed down that avenue.

Keep in mind the reason the mbr 'might' miss the weekend; the birth of a child.  I would miss it too, if it were me.

Back about 20 years ago, there was a major (for a res unit) wknd ex scheduled.  I had an offer for an all expense paid trip to Toronto with a young lady present itself;  I did NOT attend the exercise, and that was giving them 2 weeks notice I was unavailable.  When some of my CofC found out where I went, sure they were mad but, if you aren't paying me full-time you can't expect me to be available full-time either.  It's part of the realities of a PRES force.  :2c:

 

[Mike5]

Guy on my weekend PRes Basic was in the exact same situation; as I recall he gave the course staff notice well in advance; he was able to miss a day without recoursing.

 

[runormal]

In recent experience I have witnessed the following:
- A member missed the range weekend because he had a wedding. As a result he attended the range weekend after we had the grade parade and shot with another course, (We were also told before hand if we had a major issue or if we failed we could re shoot).
- A member who worked for DND missed like half a day because there was an event he had to go.
- A member missed a day of DP 1.0 because he had a police interview which he knew about before the course.
- A member missed 4 hours of course IOT write a final exam.
- A member missed the first day of SQ because there was a screw up between his OPS and the course.

The big thing is that in all of these cases the member noticed the course staff far in advance notice and it wasn't "UH WO i need to be off next weekend is that cool?"


With that being said on paper "you can only miss X amount of classes without being recoursed, depending on the length of the course. Most if not all the individuals should of been re-coursed. The course staff simply found a way to work around it. At the same time I have seen "problem troops" given the boot for missing too much course time.

You aren't supposed to miss any time, but the army IMO can be fairly accommodating. Providing you give them enough notice and that it is for a really good reason. On your first weekend they should have a mini interview. Who are you, what are you doing, any family, financial problems we should know about? At this point you will say "My wife's due date is XYZ how can we work around this?"

AFAIK res basic is only 11 weekends. Nothing in life, especially with the army is a guarantee but if you are a switched on troop and give a lot of notice, I suspect that your unit/course will find a way to work around this should weekend be a conflict. Furthermore even if it is a conflict right now the schedule for the course could change.

 

[Lumber]

:goodpost:

Really? Seriously? Let's just advise a new soldier that we find it OK to just do what ever we want, break rules, and things will work out in the end. This has got to be the most inane statement i have seen on this site in a while...

BinRat, the Military isn't black and white. It's 50 shades of ship's side grey, and turqouise.

Jarnhamar correct in that as a member of the PRes, he's not legally obligated to show up. It will affect his coursing, it will affect is PER, and it might affect his peers' and superios' opinion of his dedication, but that's all.

More importantly, however, is my point about this being a grey area where leadership comes into play. We're not telling the member he can do what he wants and break the rules. We're telling him that, as experienced members and leaders in the CAF, we take the morale and personal well being of our soldiers and sailors seriously. Unless I'm on an active operation, my MO has always been to put the member first (Mission -> Member - > Self; so if there's no mission, Member comes first). The birth of a first child is huge event in someone's life! A weekend of PRes BMQ....is NOT, nor is it something that we can't, as leaders, find a way to make up elsewhere. If you're worried about the perception of the other member's who don't get to take the time off because they don't have kids, well explaining it to them and convincing them that's its the right decision is another leadership job.

 

[George Wallace]

In recent experience I have witnessed the following:
- A member missed the range weekend because he had a wedding. As a result he attended the range weekend after we had the grade parade and shot with another course, (We were also told before hand if we had a major issue or if we failed we could re shoot).
- A member who worked for DND missed like half a day because there was an event he had to go.
- A member missed a day of DP 1.0 because he had a police interview which he knew about before the course.
- A member missed 4 hours of course IOT write a final exam.
- A member missed the first day of SQ because there was a screw up between his OPS and the course.

The big thing is that in all of these cases the member noticed the course staff far in advance notice and it wasn't "UH WO i need to be off next weekend is that cool?"


With that being said on paper "you can only miss X amount of classes without being recoursed, depending on the length of the course. Most if not all the individuals should of been re-coursed. The course staff simply found a way to work around it. At the same time I have seen "problem troops" given the boot for missing too much course time.

You aren't supposed to miss any time, but the army IMO can be fairly accommodating. Providing you give them enough notice and that it is for a really good reason. On your first weekend they should have a mini interview. Who are you, what are you doing, any family, financial problems we should know about? At this point you will say "My wife's due date is XYZ how can we work around this?"

AFAIK res basic is only 11 weekends. Nothing in life, especially with the army is a guarantee but if you are a switched on troop and give a lot of notice, I suspect that your unit/course will find a way to work around this should weekend be a conflict. Furthermore even if it is a conflict right now the schedule for the course could change.

This thread is really going on for much too long.

On Reserve BMQ, there are requirements to meet the Crse criteria.  It is not unusual for Reservists to have commitments outside of the CAF that they MUST attend to.  If a Reservist must miss training on the BMQ Crse, then it is passed on to their Unit to make up that training and send confirmation to the Crse staff so that the PO/EO's are documented as having been done.  As mentioned, if a Reservist can not attend a BMQ Crse, or any Crse, to attain the required PO/EO's to pass, then they will be recoursed. 

In this case, the member is asking about missing the LAST weekend of the Crse.  If the last weekend is merely an administrative weekend, parade rehearsal or the Grad Parade, there should be no major concerns on the part of all parties.  If the last weekend is the confirmation Exercise or a Range practice that involves the member passing PO/EO's, then there may be a problem. 

As we do not know what is to be covered on this LAST weekend we can not give the member any better advice than to ask their Staff for permission to miss that weekend, a day, a few hours, or whatever would be appropriate. 

As the predicting of the birth date of their child is not an accurate science, these may all be moot points. 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

The big thing is that in all of these cases the member noticed the course staff far in advance notice and it wasn't "UH WO i need to be off next weekend is that cool?"

This.  Advise your CofC as soon as you think you might miss something.  Better to give a heads-up rather than a fast-ball/short-fuse.

With that being said on paper "you can only miss X amount of classes without being recoursed, depending on the length of the course the 'missed training' limitations as detailed in the course Qualification Standard (QS) and Training Plan (TP).

FTFY

On your first weekend they should have a mini interview. Who are you, what are you doing, any family, financial problems we should know about? At this point you will say "My wife's due date is XYZ how can we work around this?"

And this.  Excellent point, and note how Runormal words it; like my mom said all those years "it's not what you say, it's how you say it".

 

[BinRat55]

But what rule would a class a reservist be 'breaking' if they told their unit in October they might not make 1 single training weekend next FY?  Missing one event is not usually grounds within a QS to fail a course nor is it grounds to put someone on the NES list and proceed down that avenue.

Keep in mind the reason the mbr 'might' miss the weekend; the birth of a child.  I would miss it too, if it were me.

Back about 20 years ago, there was a major (for a res unit) wknd ex scheduled.  I had an offer for an all expense paid trip to Toronto with a young lady present itself;  I did NOT attend the exercise, and that was giving them 2 weeks notice I was unavailable.  When some of my CofC found out where I went, sure they were mad but, if you aren't paying me full-time you can't expect me to be available full-time either.  It's part of the realities of a PRES force.  :2c:

I completely get it... my point though, was "Just DON'T show up... say sorry?"

Crap, give notice, at the very least. You wear a uniform, no one knows where you are - you are AWOL. At least that what I would think...

 

[Lumber]

Crap, give notice, at the very least. You wear a uniform, no one knows where you are - you are AWOL. At least that what I would think...

There is no AWOL in the reserves.

 

[George Wallace]

There is no AWOL in the reserves.

That blanket statement is false.  One can still be AWOL in the Reserves.  It all depends on what they are being employed as.  A Class A Reservist while employed as Class B on Crse, can be charged for AWOL.  A Class B or Class C Reservist employed full-time can be charged with AWOL.

 

[tree hugger]

Consider this.  Class A reservist - CO says everyone will attend the Remembrance Day parade; if unable to attend you are directed to submit a memo.  Reservist decides last minute they don't feel like going. 

AWOL?  Disobeying a direct order?  Chargeable offence?  I think so.

 

[BinRat55]

So then I just HAVE to ask - what class employment is a member doing a BMQ on weekends? If the member does not show up, it's perfectly fine? No one cares? "Where is Pte Bloggins? This transport needs to get to the range...?" "Uh, we dunno sarge" "Ok, fair enough. Let's go then!"

Not in my lifetime!

 

[Skeatah33]

AFAIK res basic is only 11 weekends.

Is AFAIK the Belleville location?
Also, if it's 11 weekends this is a moot point and there is no conflict.
However, if the course is 15 or more weekends long, I could have an issue.

I will notify my CofC as soon as I can and play it by ear.

Thanks again everyone.

 

[dapaterson]

Consider this.  Class A reservist - CO says everyone will attend the Remembrance Day parade; if unable to attend you are directed to submit a memo.  Reservist decides last minute they don't feel like going. 

AWOL?  Disobeying a direct order?  Chargeable offence?  I think so.

And your legal knowledge is based on what?  have you read the NDA?  QR&O volume II?

 

[SupersonicMax]

tree hugger,

Can a CO order a Class A reservist to show up to work?  To charce someone under AWOL, it would be reasonable to assume the inidividual needs leave to be authorized to be absent from work.  In a Class A reservist's case, they don't.  In fact, the Class A reservist is NOT liable to the CSD unless he is on duty, he wears a uniform or he is on DND property (or aircraft/ships) so you'd be hardpressed charging a reservist for AWOL if:

1- He is not subjet to the CSD because he is not on duty and
2- He doesn't need leave to absent himself from work.

In a BMQ (or any course really) case, if the absence is NOT justified, it'd be easy to justify a failure of the course (ie: the staff is not willing to accomodate extra training for this sole purpose therefore it would be and incomplete syllabus and a failure).

On the leadership issue.  It is our responsibility as leaders to ensure our personnel are supported.  Yup, we are in the military and we are liable 24/7 but we are still humans with a life and it behove to us to ensure we can accomodate our personnel in order to live their lives fully when operational needs allow (and no, training, unless in direct preparation for an operation, is not an operational need).  This pays dividends in the long term when push comes to shove and you need more from your subbordinates, they will be there to support the organization.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Consider this.  Class A reservist - CO says everyone will attend the Remembrance Day parade; if unable to attend you are directed to submit a memo.  Reservist decides last minute they don't feel like going. 

AWOL?  Disobeying a direct order?  Chargeable offence?  I think so.

Can to CO "order" as in lawful command that you SHALL attend the parade if you are Class A?  When is a Class A reservist subj to the CSD?  At home, class A and not on the paysheet and decides "nope not going" while ethically wrong is not one of those times a mbr is subj to the CSD.

You don't have to believe me, read Art 102.01(1)(c).  http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-02/ch-102.page 

Now, admin action is a different story.  >

 

[Eye In The Sky]

So then I just HAVE to ask - what class employment is a member doing a BMQ on weekends? If the member does not show up, it's perfectly fine? No one cares? "Where is Pte Bloggins? This transport needs to get to the range...?" "Uh, we dunno sarge" "Ok, fair enough. Let's go then!"

Not in my lifetime!

When I did PRES BMQs the first thing we had them do on Fri night of a trg weekend was sign the paysheets for Fri/Sat/Sun.  ;D

If Friday night they didn't show up (it happened) we called their home and asked what was up.  Weekend trg events for most reservists are class A time, except for people on Cl B contracts. 

 

[sarahsmom]

Is AFAIK the Belleville location?

AFAIK is an internet acronym for "As Far As I Know"

 

[Revan]

I don't know what to tell you and i won't try (especially since the others have given what appears to be solid advice!).  I can tell you that seeing your child's birth is one of the best things you can ever experience!  I start BMOQ for reg force Oct 26 and it runs until Feb 26th and my wife is pregnant with our second... the due date is the 19th of Feb.  I won't be around to see the second one born and that sucks a bit but i can tell you for sure i am glad i was there for the first.  It was one of the best days of my life!  Congrats and I hope you get to enjoy the moment.

 

[Lumber]

Consider this.  Class A reservist - CO says everyone will attend the Remembrance Day parade; if unable to attend you are directed to submit a memo.  Reservist decides last minute they don't feel like going. 

AWOL?  Disobeying a direct order?  Chargeable offence?  I think so.

The truth is literally the exact opposite of what you just said. If the CO orders everyone to attend, and a Class-A member says no and doesn't provide a memo, or, says yes and decides to just not show up, he can't be charged.

George Wallace I appologize for my blanket statement; I did mean to be specific to Class-As.

 

[dapaterson]

The truth is literally the exact opposite of what you just said. If the CO orders everyone to attend, and a Class-A member says no and doesn't provide a memo, or, says yes and decides to just not show up, he can't be charged.

George Wallace I appologize for my blanket statement; I did mean to be specific to Class-As.

There are provisions under the NDA to charge class A members who do not attend training; unfortunately, it's not under the Code of Service Discipline.  One would be hard-pressed to find a prosecutor willing to take such a case, where the maximum fine is $25 (for an NCM) or $50 (for an officer) for each day they fail to attend.

PART VII
OFFENCES TRIABLE BY CIVIL COURTS

Failure to attend parade

294. (1) Every officer or non-commissioned member of the reserve force who without lawful excuse neglects or refuses to attend any parade or training at the place and hour appointed therefor is guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction for each offence, if an officer, to a fine not exceeding fifty dollars and, if a non-commissioned member, to a fine not exceeding twenty-five dollars.

Marginal note:Each absence an offence

(2) Absence from any parade or training referred to in subsection (1) is, in respect of each day on which the absence occurs, a separate offence.