BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]

[ARMY_101]

Army 101

I am a instructor at CFLRS the person who started this thread so that potential recruits could stop constantly asking what the policy was re electronics (it had recently changed) I will reiterate something for you. from the Commandants mouth " Trials were done on 4 Platoons, those Platoons were allowed to keep their personal electronice (cells phones etc) it was shown that by allowing those recruits to keep their electronic devices that VR's were down 66%"

Now you could argue complete coincidence seeing as no one has ever said I'm VRing because I don't have my phone but the numbers say otherwise don't they.

Fair enough. I did not mean for my comments to suggest you were lying or unaware of what was said, if that's how it came out.

I think I've said my peace on this topic.

 

[jasonf6]

Anyone who sees fit to defend a decision like this is out of touch with what soldiering is about.  If a bunch of punks can't handle 4 weeks without their precious gadgets they need to be spit back out on the streets and their foul taste erased from the army's memory.

:+1:

 

[GnyHwy]

And you're speaking from first hand experience on this? 

As an experienced instructor and leader of troops, yes.  It is very simple to tell when troops are distracted.  Is that entirely because of phones?  No, I don't believe so, but it I am certain that it is in some cases.

Now that it seems that I am a hardass jerk, this is not the case.  I am quite the opposite; I am a very reasonable guy.  This is my earlier quote.

Communications of all types in the recruit school should be limited to a short window per day.  I say 1-2 hours after supper or your last period; that is usually when our brain is mush anyway.  Special circumstances can be handled on a case by case basis.

This can be simplified down to understanding priorities, which a significant number of young troops don't yet understand.  During the work day and except for significant family issues, if social media is anywhere but the bottom of the list, then priorities have been misplaced.

 

[Bass ackwards]

It seems to me that this is the world that we built for ourselves. The spoiled, instant-gratification, me-first/me-only world that we've been carefully cultivating since the sixties.
It's probably not the one that most of the readers/posters here wanted -and in fact many probably tried their level best to prevent -but there it is.
It's like an infuriated conservative watching Trudeau/Cretien/Martin being elected (or, for that matter, a no doubt equally infuriated liberal watching Steven Harper being sworn in).
It's not the world you want. For Goddamn sure you knew what the consequences would be -but the majority made that decision for you.

But from what I've seen, somehow, miraculously, some pretty good kids still manage to claw their way up the pipeline.
Not just in the military but in civvie jobs too.

I think the best we can do is cultivate the good ones, try the best we can with the so-so, and let Mr Darwin take the rest.

Just my  :2c:
 

 

[jaolt1]

Certainly agree with all  comments that this new directive makes one shake his/her head . But...there you have it "the crux of the biscuit" its been comin' on for a long time. I feel sometimes my hands are tied as to how I raise my son. We all have to pull on the same rope to make it work. Seems to me the young fellers today would rather argue that point or tell me "go to hell old man".

Just sayin'

 

[Jarnhamar]

All

As of now recruits and Officer Cadets WILL be allowed to have access to their personal electronics (Cell phone, Laptop, IPod etc etc) for the entire course.

no longer will they be taken for the first 4 weeks of training and then accessed only on weekends after the 4 week in-doc. Now all candidates will have access to them for the entire course.

The Commandant has taken this step as it was seen to reduce the VR rate by 66% during the trial PL's that were run.

On a personal note many of you will cry havoc at this step (myself included) but he is the CO and thus we follow his directives. Do I like it no, do I agree with it HELL NO but there it is. And people wonder why I am releasing....  :

Edit: Spelling

This is a really bad move.

The fact that banning electronic devices was causing an increased VR rate tells me that the ban is doing it's job.
People these day go to shit if they can't access their cell phones or the internet. We punted a Sgt from tour while overseas because he couldn't disconnect from stupid online dating websites.
NCMs sneaking off to text is a huge problem. future leaders on my leadership course would sit in the back of the class and ignore the class material and text or watch porn and laugh about it.

if a kid is going to cry and want to quit because he can't update facebook for a month then that's not the kind of person we need in the military. I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir with this.  I think the Commandant is looking at numbers and not quality, unfortunately.

 

[McG]

I have heard that some US Army schools have responded to the problem of an iPhone addicted recruit base by issuing iPhones to everybody on occupation training.
... of course, like every CF issued Blackberry, the techs have disabled all the features that the schools don't want the students using, and the majority of apps are actually e-learning tools (like a US Army Ethic trg app).  Instead of Angry Birds, the games socialize messages of US Army culture.

 

[Tank Troll]

With postions in the Forces being limited as they are these days you'd think we would want to be more selective. If not having electronic devices makes people quit then I say GOOD it is an other weeding out process. Remember YOU joined the CF we didn't join you! You need to fit to our world and regulations not the other way around.

 

[krustyrl]

:goodpost:

 

[jasonf6]

With postions in the Forces being limited as they are these days you'd think we would want to be more selective. If not have electronic devices makes people quit then I say GOOD it is an other weeding out process. Remember YOU joined the CF we didn't join you! You need to fit to our world and regulations not the other way around.

Exactly.  Use their inability to cope with the loss of their precious devices as another screening tool. 

I don't know about anyone else but the last thing I wanted to be doing during basic and battle school at the end of the day was worrying about a missed text message or e-mail.  I was tired and had a crapload of things to get ready for the morning before heading to bed.  I had other priorities.

 

[Craisome]

I consider myself lucky that I'm slightly above the texting generation (I think).

If you think kids these days aren't addicted to texting or updating status all the time, I took my 16 year old cousin hunting for the first time this year.

What did he do the first thing after shooting a partridge?  Make a post on Facebook...  Gun in one hand, cell phone in the other.

 

[OldSolduer]

When a policy such as this changes we usually have two sides:

THE SKY IS FALLING crowd - those that think the overall effectiveness of the CF is totally compromised over some electronic devices that recruits are allowed during BMQ.

Then we have the other side that thinks its fine and unlimited use is OK no matter what standard the recruit accomplishes.

Have you ever thought we have policies in place to deal with this? IF Recruit Bloggins has not completed his/her tasks as ordered by his Section commander due to his /her excessive time on line.....he/she can be charged or counselled, correct? So what's wrong with the recruits keeping cell phones/electronics provided they get their jobs done to the standard expected?

Its the 21st Century, troops.  I don't see the issue here.

 

[DexOlesa]

The instructors at BMQ are being put to task for taking such aggressive postures as putting their hands on their hips, or crossing their arms

The troops too, at least by the PSP staff. After a run or something if you put your hands on your hips you were showing an aggressive and unacceptable stance, group pushups ensue. I don't know where that BS came from. None of my course staff scared me by putting their hands on their hips or the overly aggressive arm crossing..... They had much better ways to scare me  >

 

[aesop081]

When a policy such as this changes we usually have two sides:

No, Jim, we see 3 crowds.

I'm in the crowd that doesn't think the sky is falling but i am in the crowd that thinks we simply shifted the burden of indoctrinating new soldiers away from CFLRS to further down the line. Now the burden falls on trade schools and units to deal with troops who are inadequately prepared for the realities of military life.

The sky will not fall and our soldiers will still win wars but we just gave the units one more duty, do CFLRS's job.

I don't see the issue here.

Its the 21st century, i dont see the need to parade soldiers around like show horses.  ;D

 

[SentryMAn]

It's not just this single "issue" it is the idea that we need to keep making concessions for these kids.  I'm glad you're not seeing it in your neck of the woods but it is all adding up and creates a hell of a mess for the rest of us to clean up.  If I am going to be questioned by troops on my policies which are apparently counterpoised to this new secret CF leadership initiative (secret because I have received no indoctrination) than I don't want to be held accountable when they finally throw it all under the bus.  The instructors at BMQ are being put to task for taking such aggressive postures as putting their hands on their hips, or crossing their arms because they might intimidate the troops, and on the other end I'm getting harassment complaints because the Sergeants are "mean" (read: have expectations that the troops will listen and respond appropriately to direction).  I remember when a Section had one or two bad eggs, now I have a 50% problem.  It isn't everyone (I have some good kids), and it goes beyond cell phones and also speaks to the quality of  Jr leaders we are producing, our middle management etc.  I'm not saying I have anarchy or that I'm incapable of doing my job, in fact we've turned the issue on it's ear and some of my worst problems have become my most productive soldiers, however, it shouldn't be my job to teach the basics (if it is then give me more staff and I'll stand up a training section).  My organization is responsible for the maintenance of strategic communications infrastructure in Canada, it is hard and dangerous work sometimes, if the troops don't listen or decide the Sgt doesn't know what he's talking about and take their own "enlightened" path, then people could die.  It's not the policy itself we are concerned about, but the overall methodology.  I wish I had all the answers, but until then the beatings will only increase until morale improves.

Well put.
The CF's mandate of being a soldier first should not include things like Use of electronic communication devices outside of a radio and/or GPS unit.

But with all things in the CF, the CO will tell me what is acceptable and I shall enforce that policy and that will be the end of the argument.

 

[Tank Troll]

I've had students electronic devices go off while I was teaching lectures. Once while doing driver training one of them actually pulled their phone out and answer it. I have heard them going off during inspections. I've come in after lights out to find half a dozen glows coming from bunk spaces.  All of this with a limited electronic policy in effect.
This is a process to get them to stop being individuals and part of a team. When we went to Cornwallis (the old place for basic before the Mega) we had our civvies, magazines and books locked up so we would only wear our issued kit and have no distraction to help assimilate us into a team. Having individuals constantly updating status, texting, doing what ever it is that they spend hours a day doing is a distration and is detrimental to their learning process. My kids were physical sick when they found out there was no TV, Internet, or Cell coverage at the cottage we rented last Summer, so too say that they aren't addicted or they don't need there devices, well we all know that it just isn't true.
So like safety rules policies get put in place because of others actions.

 

[aesop081]

When we went to Cornwallis (the old place for basic before the Mega)

Point of note, basic training in St-Jean pre-dates the megaplex and was going on at the same time as basic in Cornwallis. Only anglophone candidates had to change training location.

 

[ARMY_101]

When a policy such as this changes we usually have two sides:

THE SKY IS FALLING crowd - those that think the overall effectiveness of the CF is totally compromised over some electronic devices that recruits are allowed during BMQ.

Then we have the other side that thinks its fine and unlimited use is OK no matter what standard the recruit accomplishes.

Have you ever thought we have policies in place to deal with this? IF Recruit Bloggins has not completed his/her tasks as ordered by his Section commander due to his /her excessive time on line.....he/she can be charged or counselled, correct? So what's wrong with the recruits keeping cell phones/electronics provided they get their jobs done to the standard expected?

Its the 21st Century, troops.  I don't see the issue here.

Well put.  This policy in no way cancels out the existing mechanisms in place to deal with unacceptable behaviour.

 

[Swingline1984]

Well put.  This policy in no way cancels out the existing mechanisms in place to deal with unacceptable behaviour.

Nope not at all.  It just creates MORE "unacceptable behaviour".

 

[Tank Troll]

Point of note, basic training in St-Jean pre-dates the megaplex and was going on at the same time as basic in Cornwallis. Only anglophone candidates had to change training location.

Hence the term we meaning us anglaphones