BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]

[Cpl_lou]

I'll try to offer a perspective, that of someone who's been in just South of 9 years.

You say the Army isn't changing quick enough. I think it's changing too quickly, and not necessarily in the right direction. We're becoming a corporation that's a little too concerned with political correctness and hugs-kisses-coddles. Maybe it's a generational thing, but it seems to me that some people are coming in with a sense of entitlement without the willingness to deal with some of the hardships.

Let's talk about hardships. The military inherently is full of them. That should be an accepted fact. In the 56 months I've been with my wife, I've been away approximately 26 months, including a 10 month tour in Afghanistan. That's about 2.16 years, or 46.42% of our lives together.

When it comes to military families, there has to be an understanding and strength on the part of all members. I was very up front with my spouse of what military life entailed getting into it. We make decisions together. I learned this at an early age, growing up in a military family, which also included several IR separations. I remember getting typewritten letters (YES, Letters!) from my father when he was in the field.

Sometimes, you won't be able to contact your family very frequently. Try a Roto 0 with 1 Satphone between an entire Sqn for calls home. And because we coddle people, that hardship will be multiplied when people are actually faced it.

BMQ seems really hard, but after a few years in, you look back and realize it wasn't really as hard as you thought it was. It's supposed to be your first indoctrination TO hardship. You're supposed to be under the gun. And if there are issues at home, there are options available. That's what FCP, rear parties, compassionates, contact Numbers and Padres are for. Yeah, it's not as convenient as pulling your cell out of your locker. But then army life is inherently inconvenient.

I'm of a mind that if your head is always at home, then it's not on work. You can't worry about your basement flooding sometimes. You have to trust that your spouse will be able to deal with it.

Having your head at home on BMQ may lead to a poor showing during inspection.

Having your head at home overseas can lead to much more disastrous results.

If you can't deal with not having a cellphone during basic, IMO (and it's not a very nice one, but I think a realistic one), you should GTFO. And I am neither a dinosaur, nor ignorant of the wellfare of my subordinates.

When I'm on shift, I'm all about work. When I'm off shift, I'm all about family. I've learned to switch it on and off; however it's not as easy for a civilian family member to live with that. I agree that you must have your head in the game when at work... when at work! When you're not working, you should be able to deal with issues that arise.

As for an understanding of strength for all parties involved in your life... you can ask that of your spouse but how can you ask that of your children? Especially ones with special needs?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

You're right MPMick... if the CF is not able to assist members who have children with special needs, then the military life is NOT for me and my family! As a fellow MP, you would think you would have a little more empathy though.

WTF does being a MP have to do with it?  Why do you have this expectation for others to trod the same path of thinking you do?  You have a child with special needs, understood.  Then why did you join and leave?  Personal choice to do so, and now the CF should do what because of it? 

:

/tangent

Joining the CF, aka "the service' as it was commonly referred to, means you have a desire to serve your country and that the duties you perform are in the service of Canada.  All of us who make this choice, make it knowing that we will be called away, to perform our duties.  It is simply a part of the job description, full stop.  People are told this while applying, during Basic, trades training, etc etc etc.

Accepting a career offer in the military means accepting the way of life in the mililtary as well.  You can't join the CF with the expectations of the comforts found in civilian professions where they don't have to go away, move around the country, all of that stuff.  If you don't want to move, or deploy, then the MILITARY IS NOT FOR YOU.  If you have a family that can't/won't relocate, then you should not expect to serve and reside with them.  It is simply ri-fucking-diculous to join the CF and expect you will be home every night like your friend Johny/Jane, who is the Produce Manager at Sobeys down the road.

Canadians volunteer to join the CF, for whatever reasons, they do it freely.  With that choice comes realities, some good and some bad.  If you make a choice to lace up the boots that then doesn't meet your every need and want, remember first and foremost that YOU made the choice to join/serve.  Either accept the realities, or get out and see if Sobey's is still hiring so  you can be home every night.

/tangent ends

I am tired of people whining because the CF doesn't meet their needs. 

Cpl Lou, according to your own post, your family isn't with you right now because of access issues and a spouse's gov't job.  Neither of those are the CF's responsibilities or causes.

Unhappy with being away?  THAT I can understand.  Everyone in the CF has/is/will go thru that and 'in our big family', yes we understand and even sympathize, from a BTDT perspective.

Whining that the CF doesn't do enough for you and your 'special needs'?  I don't think you'll get a 'there, there' Sheldon Cooper reply here..  :

It seems to me you are blaming the CF for the realities of your own life choices.  Think about that for a second....does that make sense?

If you can't deal with the realities of your life that you created prior to joining the service combined with the realities of being in the service, then yes you should release, go home and find whatever makes you happy, and create that open spot for the Canadian who is waiting patiently for their chance to serve.

 

[Sig_Des]

When I'm on shift, I'm all about work. When I'm off shift, I'm all about family. I've learned to switch it on and off; however it's not as easy for a civilian family member to live with that. I agree that you must have your head in the game when at work... when at work! When you're not working, you should be able to deal with issues that arise.

I'm of the mind that when on BMQ, it's not like a training week at a bank. It's preparing you, not for a job, but by means of immersion into a lifestyle.

I find too many people are looking at the military as just a stable job, but once again, that's a personal opinion.

As for an understanding of strength for all parties involved in your life... you can ask that of your spouse but how can you ask that of your children? Especially ones with special needs?

That's where you have to take a deep and hard look at the balance between your family requirements and the exigencies of service. By the same reasoning, you've accepted unlimited liability (or should have), but your children haven't. Should you ask your child to accept that should you give up your life?

If someone can't accept that, they should reconsider the military lifestyle. But that should be is a personal choice.

 

[OldSolduer]

I'm of the mind that when on BMQ, it's not like a training week at a bank. It's preparing you, not for a job, but by means of immersion into a lifestyle.

I find too many people are looking at the military as just a stable job.

And many of us agree with you.

 

[Cpl_lou]

WTF does being a MP have to do with it?  Why do you have this expectation for others to trod the same path of thinking you do?  You have a child with special needs, understood.  Then why did you join and leave?  Personal choice to do so, and now the CF should do what because of it? 

:

/tangent

Joining the CF, aka "the service' as it was commonly referred to, means you have a desire to serve your country and that the duties you perform are in the service of Canada.  All of us who make this choice, make it knowing that we will be called away, to perform our duties.  It is very simply as a part of the job description, full stop.  People are told this while applying, during Basic, trades training, etc etc etc.

Accepting a career offer in the military means accepting the way of life in the mililtary as well.  You can't join the CF with the expectations of the comforts found in civilian professions where they don't have to go away, move around the country, all of that stuff.  If you don't want to move, or deploy, then the MILITARY IS NOT FOR YOU.  If you have a family that can't/won't relocate, then you should not expect to serve and reside with them.  It is simply ri-fucking-diculous to join the CF and expect you will be home every night like your friend Johny/Jane, who is the Produce Manager at Sobeys down the road.

Canadians volunteer to join the CF, for whatever reasons, they do it freely.  With that choice comes realities, some good and some bad.  If you make a choice to lace up the boots that then doesn't meet your every need and want, remember first and foremost that YOU made the choice to join/serve.  Either accept the realities, or get out and see if Sobey's is still hiring so  you can be home every night.

/tangent ends

I am tired of people whining because the CF doesn't meet their needs. 

Cpl Lou, according to your own post, your family isn't with you right now because of access issues and a spouse's gov't job.  Neither of those are the CF's responsibilities or causes.

Unhappy with being away?  THAT I can understand.  Everyone in the CF has/is/will go thru that and 'in our big family', yes we understand and even sympathize, from a BTDT perspective.

Whining that the CF doesn't do enough for you and your 'special needs'?  I don't think you'll get a 'there, there' Sheldon Cooper reply here..  :

It seems to me you are blaming the CF for the realities of your own life choices.  Think about that for a second....does that make sense?

If you can't deal with the realities of your life that you created prior to joining the service combined with the realities of being in the service, then yes you should release, go home and find whatever makes you happy, and create that open spot for the Canadian who is waiting patiently for their chance to serve.

Did any one of you actually read all of my posts or are you simply responding to the latest ones that you see and disagree with? I don't believe the military owes ME anything. I am simply stated  that if the CF wants to keep their members after putting all of the time, effort and money into training them, then it might be beneficial to TRY to accommodate their families somehow! Why am I a whiner or not suitable for a military lifestyle because I'm thinking of my family?

 

[Sig_Des]

I am simply stated  that if the CF wants to keep their members after putting all of the time, effort and money into training them, then it might be beneficial to TRY to accommodate their families somehow!

And as I replied, the military DOES accomodate with what it has available. Family Care Plans, compassionate postings and leaves, Padres and the like.

But things STILL aren't always going to be hunky-dory, and it does a disservice to members to not prepare them for those times.

 

[MeatheadMick]

When I'm on shift, I'm all about work. When I'm off shift, I'm all about family. I've learned to switch it on and off; however it's not as easy for a civilian family member to live with that. I agree that you must have your head in the game when at work... when at work! When you're not working, you should be able to deal with issues that arise.

As for an understanding of strength for all parties involved in your life... you can ask that of your spouse but how can you ask that of your children? Especially ones with special needs?

I understand where you're coming from... however, what I'm trying to get at is if you have all of these personal problems perhaps the military is not the place you need to be. Especially in our line of work, your head needs to be completely on the job. You can't just turn it on, turn it off... that's BS. If you've been away from your family for 14 months +, your mind is not always going to be on the job. 12 hours that turns into 15 hours after an incident when paper-work needs to be completed has a tendency of making your mind wander to the bigger and brighter.

This was never intended to be a personal attack, although it seems you took it to be that way. You're going to be dealing with other members of the military who have other personal problems and it's your responsibility to be in check of your own. Even if you were at home with your children, nothing is saying you're going to be in the same position forever. I grew up in a military family, my dad was gone a lot and we were posted every few years. There's difficulties to the career you've chosen and if you're too soft to deal with them, or your family can't take the separation, there's always different careers available.

I'm sorry the CF poses these difficulties for you, however I'm sure they were explained to you before you signed on the dotted line.

 

[Cpl_lou]

And many of us agree with you.

I joined because I have a long history of friends and family who have served, are currently serving, who have died serving, who have been injured - physically and psychologically and I wanted to be a part of that bigger family. I didn't whine when I couldn't use my phone... I stated in my first post that I was not allowed to use it. I also stated that my situation is not unique. I am tired of hearing that the military is not for me because I have family, or a child with special needs. I am not saying I have "sacrificed"... I'm not a martyr... and I have not experienced real sacrifice (in the military) like the bulk of the members on here seem to already have done. I simply stated a rather unpopular opinion, as it would seem - to a crowd of instructors and long-serving members who have come from the old school of thought. I am sorry my opinions are so unpopular but telling me "the military lifestyle is not for me and my family" or to "GTFO", or "stop whining" is not helpful.

 

[Cpl_lou]

I understand where you're coming from... however, what I'm trying to get at is if you have all of these personal problems perhaps the military is not the place you need to be. Especially in our line of work, your head needs to be completely on the job. You can't just turn it on, turn it off... that's BS. If you've been away from your family for 14 months +, your mind is not always going to be on the job. 12 hours that turns into 15 hours after an incident when paper-work needs to be completed has a tendency of making your mind wander to the bigger and brighter.

This was never intended to be a personal attack, although it seems you took it to be that way. You're going to be dealing with other members of the military who have other personal problems and it's your responsibility to be in check of your own. Even if you were at home with your children, nothing is saying you're going to be in the same position forever. I grew up in a military family, my dad was gone a lot and we were posted every few years. There's difficulties to the career you've chosen and if you're too soft to deal with them, or your family can't take the separation, there's always different careers available.

I'm sorry the CF poses these difficulties for you, however I'm sure they were explained to you before you signed on the dotted line.

I am 42 YOA with several years of dealing with victims of violence and much more... that is all.

 

[aesop081]

I am 42 YOA with several years of dealing with victims of violence and much more... that is all.

...and the price of tea in China is what, again ?

 

[Cpl_lou]

...and the price of tea in China is what, again ?

Wasn't talking to you.

I think I've been very respectful to you all so far, despite your more than adversarial approach to debates. I'm out!

 

[Allgunzblazing]

I am not a CF member. My association with the military has been through my father and brother. My brother and I spent our childhood shuttling from one base to another (in India), every few years.

India is surrounded from all four corners by very friendly neighbours. Because of this our father used to be gone for months on end. We were told that the unit or brigade was going for routine exercises, but now that I'm older - I know that many of those were Counter Insurgency Operations. One exercise which I still remember was Operation Brasstacks - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Brasstacks. Our entire cantonment had become a ghost town for a few months. My mother and us boys had absolutely NO contact with our father.

In all this, I don't ever remember complaining about our father's absence. Neither did my brother or our friends. We just accepted that as a part of normal life.

Now, I understand that times have changed and that is a different country I'm talking about. But still - aren't the expectations from a soldier pretty much the same in any country? Like I've said, I'm not a soldier. So please excuse my ignorance.

 

[Sig_Des]

Wasn't talking to you.

I think I've been very respectful to you all so far, despite your more than adversarial approach to debates. I'm out!

And here I was, trying to be non-confrontational. **** it, Meh.

 

[Scott]

Wasn't talking to you.

I think I've been very respectful to you all so far, despite your more than adversarial approach to debates. I'm out!

:'(

Christ, you can't take criticism, can you? It was not adversarial at all, quit whining.

So, you're like done-done now? Or is this another pump fake?

 

[MeatheadMick]

<snip> I am sorry my opinions are so unpopular but telling me "the military lifestyle is not for me and my family" or to "GTFO", or "stop whining" is not helpful.

Well it seems you were trying to open up a topic of discussion relating on "change" in the military... or the "softer" military that so many of us are experiencing and having a hard time coping with. The military was never developed to be easy... if it were easy everyone would do it, and the MP's would have a hell of a lot more to do. How can you go say we aren't being helpful when your 5th post was to "disengage" because you didn't agree with what was being said?

You haven't even had to experience most hardships that come with being in the military... this is why I think the MP trade should still have the private rank... instant promotions lead to a small fraction of people that are part of the 'entitled' generation...

I am 42 YOA with several years of dealing with victims of violence and much more... that is all.

Age has nothing to do with anything... I'm 24... I've been in since I was 17... I never had to experience the 'old' ways either... but even in my 7 years of service I've seen a change within the CF. Not necessarily the service, but with some of the people that are in it.

 

[aesop081]

who have come from the old school of thought.

The "old school of thought" ?

I'm a 37 year-old single parent posted to a high-ops tempo unit. I know about family issues as I not only look after my own, but those of 30 other people. I am familiar enough with every program the CF has for assistance in order to provide useful advice to all my subordinates. I spend 5-6 months of every year on the road. I deployed last year to combat ops on 3 hours notice.......as a single parent. I live tied to a cell phone and often go away in the middle of the night with no ETA back at home. Sometimes I come back a few hours later, sometimes a few days later and, like last year, months later. I often can't easily call home and often cannot even mention where i went and for what. I still manage to take care of my family, without the benefit of another parent.

I lived away from my kids for 5 years before re-gaining custody. I had them for 2 then was posted and lost custody for another year. Got posted again......

Yeah..."old school"  :

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I am tired of hearing that the military is not for me because I have family, or a child with special needs.

The issue is not that you have a family and kids (I have a spouse, my own child who lives with her mom, and 2 step-children).  The issue is the realities of your life choices before CF service combined with the realities of CF service now that you face along with a spouse/family who can't/won't move to your posting location for reasons outside the CF.

Initially your contention was that IGadgets should be allowed during BMQ so 'people can deal with life/school/kids issues' and we have tried to say to you and get you to see:

1.  BMQ is designed/geared to climatize people to military life, or to start the process at the very least.  Part of the reality of military life is NOT being there to deal with life/school/kids issues all the time and it is important for the CF mbr and his/her family to begin to learn how to manage that during BMQ; it is part of the training and adaptation to military life IMO regardless of it is a PO check or not.  Learning to do it now and accepting the loss of contact/comm's with family and ability to deal with day to day issues is part of the learning curve new CF members have to deal with and it is best to start that process right from the get-go; that is at CFLRS.

2. The realities of personal life choices and CF requirements don't always play well with each other.  In your case, you have a child with special needs.  Your family has restrictions on moving because of child access issues and a spouse with gov't job who won't move.  These realities are a result of personal choices made by you / your spouse and aren't in any way related to service in the CF.

3.  During the Basic portion of trg, or any trg, any CF member has ALL KINDS of resources avail to them in the event of a real life, no duff emergency.  There ARE things in place for these situations.  I've seen them used before many times during 14 years where I was tasked a large portion of that time as course staff/instructor.  That is why I say your contention that the CF doesn't accomodate mbrs with needs is wrong/misleading.


I'm going to take a WAG that the 'CF should TRY to accomodate' stuff you've been mentioning is because your family is actually located in a location where there is a CF base/Wing/Station/etc and that you had hoped for a posting there after the MPA in Borden, but you've been posted to a different location and are frustrated because you can't get a posting to where they are. 

 

[Jarnhamar]

1.  BMQ is designed/geared to climatize people to military life, or to start the process at the very least.  Part of the reality of military life is NOT being there to deal with life/school/kids issues all the time and it is important for the CF mbr and his/her family to begin to learn how to manage that during BMQ; it is part of the training and adaptation to military life IMO regardless of it is a PO check or not.  Learning to do it now and accepting the loss of contact/comm's with family and ability to deal with day to day issues is part of the learning curve new CF members have to deal with and it is best to start that process right from the get-go; that is at CFLRS.

I'll second this.


Why is it so hard to understand? One of the effects of basic training is to remove future soldiers from their comfort zones.
-Introduce them to physical and mental stresses.
-A restricted diet
-Restricted privacy
-Confined living conditions
-Require working with idiots you'd rather punch in the face, but you can't.
-Picking up the slack of people not pulling their weight.
-Stress of being away from home including NOT being able to contact your wife husband kids when you want to.

Kinda like what you might see oh I don't know, on peacekeeping or warfighting.


"Times change" doesn't hold water when you're deployed to a country where you're exposed to the conditions above, while people are trying to kill you.

If you new guys can't deal with this type of life style don't join. 

Because if you can't deal with it but manage to squirm your way through all that happens is you turn into the guys who fake injuries and family emergencies to get out of exercises and deployments.

Edited to add speaking in general terms not towards '1234 specifically.

 

[OldSolduer]

Everyone take a chill pill. We are on the same team....right?


We're a bit off topic here, may I suggest that we take this to PM land?

Thank you.

 

[Maxadia]

Jim's right, there's not much one here regarding electronics during Basic anymore....either the thread needs split, or put back on topic.