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BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]

Cpl_lou said:
Life deployed as in overseas?

Yes, overseas. Where internet and telephones are rare things that often do not exist.

I understand the attitude when it relates to in-theatre ops, but is it really necessary when in garrison?

In garrison, comms are hardly limited. BMQ is not "garrison". It is an introduction to the realities of military life. If one cannot live with limited comms for 3 months...........

And no thanks to the group hug...

Then quit complaining about the responses you are getting.
 
CDN Aviator said:
Yes, overseas. Where internet and telephones are rare things that often do not exist.

In garrison, comms are hardly limited. BMQ is not "garrison". It is an introduction to the realities of military life. If one cannot live with limited comms for 3 months...........

Then quit complaining about the responses you are getting.

Disengaging. My reasoning is lost on your rationale.
 
Yeah, and I am sure you're the only one in step. ::)

Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone!
Admirable, but I would suggest that if you find yourself alone that you might want to examine your side of the argument for flaws :nod:

If you cannot participate in a debate without crying that you've been attacked then feel free to keep disengaged.

Scott
Staff
 
Cpl_lou said:
Disengaging. My reasoning is lost on your rationale.

That's ok. I'm fairly comfortable that my rationale is well grounded in 20 years of living with reality.
 
Scott said:
Yeah, and I am sure you're the only one in step. ::)
Admirable, but I would suggest that if you find yourself alone that you might want to examine your side of the argument for flaws :nod:

If you cannot participate in a debate without crying that you've been attacked then feel free to keep disengaged.

Scott
Staff

Okay... All I was trying to say is that I support the decision within reasonable limits to allow recruits the use of their cell phones at the end of duties for a limited amount of time. Not all families can lose their mother/father for that long without issues arising. The military as a noble institution with so many noble and incredibly brave souls; however, there are a lot of things that could be fixed in order to help retain the good members. First thing is change with the changing needs of members and their families. The cell phone issue is simply one small portion of that.
 
Maybe you could have put it this way to begin with...?

I am sorry, but we are not going to agree. If you have such a bad family dynamic that a cell phone is all that stands between happiness and a meltdown then I suggest something a little extra than what an iPhone and a data plan from Rogers can provide. I do not feel much in the way of sympathy, either. Plenty of us have been down this road, plenty of us continue down it as you speak, most without a shred of complaint.

Your situation is not unique.
 
Cpl_lou said:
When I say times have changed, I mean the recruits are not all young, single, childless males with nothing they can't leave behind for 1.5 years of training anymore. The new face of the military includes peoples mothers and fathers - in some cases, even grandparents. People are joining at all different ages and stages of life with varying responsibilities and varying complexities at home.

And what exactly is it about this you think is "new"?  I joined in '89, and we had enough females in our platoon that they got 1/4 of the living space in our double story H-hut.  Your opinion is based on flawed information and I don't agree with this 'new face of the military' stuff either; what new face?  Are you suggesting that the people who served before were all young, single males?  My father would disagree, and he retired when I was 11.

I don't need to go any further than that, so I won't.

When I joined, I was given 3 weeks to organize and sort out my life at home before going away for 3 months (which actually led to 14 months and then was posted away from home for another - as yet undetermined number of years).

Right. Let's not forget to ADD some facts here to paint a better picture of reality.  You volunteered, applied and knew if you were accepted, you'd be leaving.  Trying to make it look like you only had 3 weeks because of the doings of the CF only tells me you applied and then didn't prepare for the reality of a successful application.  THAT is not the result of anything related to the CF.

As a mother and wife (and various other roles I played in my life), that is not an easy task. I've heard countless times throughout the past year and a half, "did you not sort that out before you got here?", or "you need to sort that out if you want to succeed here"... please, tell me how it is possible to "sort out" family issues that arise with either no comms or limited comms home.

Again, not unique in any way is the concept of being away.  You chose to apply, you accepted and with accepting a life in the CF, this is part of the reality sometimes.  Not just for you, for everyone.  The solution to the problem though, is not 'access to electronics during BMQ".  Maybe you need to learn to let the husband at home deal with things, that what I do when I am away and my wife lets me know when she needs my input.

You know, I joined this forum to connect with 'like-minded' people who were all a part of the same 'family' and voice my opinion on matters relating to our jobs; and after perusing the site a bit, all I have seen is these so-called 'like-minded' people attack one another for their opinions. I joined the CF because I have a long history of family who have served, have died or been injured serving our country so, that we can be free to voice our opinions.

Thats a myopic view of the site, perhaps you neeed to poke around some more.  Just because you are free to have an opinion doesn't mean I or anyone else is obliged to agree with it.

Serving means being away, everyone joins knowing that.  In essenece, you are complaining about the realities of your own decisions. 
 
Scott said:
Maybe you could have put it this way to begin with...?

I am sorry, but we are not going to agree. If you have such a bad family dynamic that a cell phone is all that stands between happiness and a meltdown then I suggest something a little extra than what an iPhone and a data plan from Rogers can provide. I do not feel much in the way of sympathy, either. Plenty of us have been down this road, plenty of us continue down it as you speak, most without a shred of complaint.

Your situation is not unique.

Didn't expect anyone to agree. Just putting my opinion out there like everyone else. I don't think my situation is unique, either. There are many people in the same position as me - which is why I think the CF is changing (just not fast enough) - I certainly didn't suggest they change for one person in my situation... but all the others in the same situation. I just have a bit of a problem with the old attitude of "suck it up" and "go without" when not in a life-threatening situation. You are/were a fire fighter?? So you understand completely the detox needed after a difficult call. There are times and places for deprivation and times and places for regrouping/detoxing/re-connecting and healing. Too much/constant deprivation can be devastating to some. I have seen the results of which both in my family and friends (military members/emergency service workers, etc.) and in many of the soldiers I've dealt with in my short time in the military. It's sad... and if you want to give me that group hug now... I'll take it now! :)
 
Cpl_lou said:
Life deployed as in overseas? Or life deployed as in away from family for years at a time? Because I've already been gone for well over a year and a half and don't foresee being home with them again for at least 2-4 years.

This must be because of personal or family decisions and NOT related to CF policy; I am very familiar, as are many others, with the CF policy on posting, careeer status CFIRP moves, etc. 

 
Eye In The Sky said:
This must be because of personal or family decisions and NOT related to CF policy; I am very familiar, as are many others, with the CF policy on posting, careeer status CFIRP moves, etc.

Yes, I was away for training for 14 months and then posted away from my family. Family couldn't move because of custody/access and other Gov't job.
 
Eye In The Sky said:
This must be because of personal or family decisions and NOT related to CF policy; I am very familiar, as are many others, with the CF policy on posting, careeer status CFIRP moves, etc.

Are you well versed in IR/Sep expenses, etc.? I'm in need of some advice on that front.
 
Cpl_lou said:
Didn't expect anyone to agree. Just putting my opinion out there like everyone else. I don't think my situation is unique, either. There are many people in the same position as me - which is why I think the CF is changing (just not fast enough) - I certainly didn't suggest they change for one person in my situation... but all the others in the same situation. I just have a bit of a problem with the old attitude of "suck it up" and "go without" when not in a life-threatening situation. You are/were a fire fighter?? So you understand completely the detox needed after a difficult call. There are times and places for deprivation and times and places for regrouping/detoxing/re-connecting and healing. Too much/constant deprivation can be devastating to some. I have seen the results of which both in my family and friends (military members/emergency service workers, etc.) and in many of the soldiers I've dealt with in my short time in the military. It's sad... and if you want to give me that group hug now... I'll take it now! :)

If you're going to reference one of the hats I wear then feel free to educate yourself on the subject before trying to use it to bolster your argument, hmmkay?

As a firefighter I would be VERY concerned if someone could not cope with the basic stressors of life during something as regimented and as safe as training. Junior's got a runny nose and so you failed inspection? Big red flag. Methinks that what some of the lads here, a few of them former CFLRS instructors, BTW, have been saying all along.

Of course I understand the basic need to decompress after a rough call. I also have the experience of getting ready to go and be by myself for a moment when the goddamned gong rings and I have to suck it up and go again, hug needed or not. As someone who has lived it, I am saying that you're better off "suffering" a little during training than once you get into the field. Simples.
 
Scott said:
If you're going to reference one of the hats I wear then feel free to educate yourself on the subject before trying to use it to bolster your argument, hmmkay?

As a firefighter I would be VERY concerned if someone could not cope with the basic stressors of life during something as regimented and as safe as training. Junior's got a runny nose and so you failed inspection? Big red flag. Methinks that what some of the lads here, a few of them former CFLRS instructors, BTW, have been saying all along.

Of course I understand the basic need to decompress after a rough call. I also have the experience of getting ready to go and be by myself for a moment when the goddamned gong rings and I have to suck it up and go again, hug needed or not. As someone who has lived it, I am saying that you're better off "suffering" a little during training than once you get into the field. Simples.

Wasn't arguing with you and I have well over 20 years of relevant experience outside of the military myself. I also have friends and family who have done that and other similar jobs. I'm not whining. I was attempting a joke about the hug.
 
Cpl_lou said:
Wasn't arguing with you and I have well over 20 years of relevant experience outside of the military myself. I also have friends and family who have done that and other similar jobs. I'm not whining. I was attempting a joke about the hug.

And I coped fine throughout basic... my son (ADHD, OCD and other issues) - did not!
 
MPMick said:
Perhaps the Military life is not for you or your family then?

You're right MPMick... if the CF is not able to assist members who have children with special needs, then the military life is NOT for me and my family! As a fellow MP, you would think you would have a little more empathy though.
 
I'll try to offer a perspective, that of someone who's been in just South of 9 years.

You say the Army isn't changing quick enough. I think it's changing too quickly, and not necessarily in the right direction. We're becoming a corporation that's a little too concerned with political correctness and hugs-kisses-coddles. Maybe it's a generational thing, but it seems to me that some people are coming in with a sense of entitlement without the willingness to deal with some of the hardships.

Let's talk about hardships. The military inherently is full of them. That should be an accepted fact. In the 56 months I've been with my wife, I've been away approximately 26 months, including a 10 month tour in Afghanistan. That's about 2.16 years, or 46.42% of our lives together.

When it comes to military families, there has to be an understanding and strength on the part of all members. I was very up front with my spouse of what military life entailed getting into it. We make decisions together. I learned this at an early age, growing up in a military family, which also included several IR separations. I remember getting typewritten letters (YES, Letters!) from my father when he was in the field.

Sometimes, you won't be able to contact your family very frequently. Try a Roto 0 with 1 Satphone between an entire Sqn for calls home. And because we coddle people, that hardship will be multiplied when people are actually faced it.

BMQ seems really hard, but after a few years in, you look back and realize it wasn't really as hard as you thought it was. It's supposed to be your first indoctrination TO hardship. You're supposed to be under the gun. And if there are issues at home, there are options available. That's what FCP, rear parties, compassionates, contact Numbers and Padres are for. Yeah, it's not as convenient as pulling your cell out of your locker. But then army life is inherently inconvenient.

I'm of a mind that if your head is always at home, then it's not on work. You can't worry about your basement flooding sometimes. You have to trust that your spouse will be able to deal with it.

Having your head at home on BMQ may lead to a poor showing during inspection.

Having your head at home overseas can lead to much more disastrous results.

If you can't deal with not having a cellphone during basic, IMO (and it's not a very nice one, but I think a realistic one), you should GTFO. And I am neither a dinosaur, nor ignorant of the wellfare of my subordinates.

 
Cpl_lou said:
You're right MPMick... if the CF is not able to assist members who have children with special needs, then the military life is NOT for me and my family! As a fellow MP, you would think you would have a little more empathy though.

As a fellow MP he should have more empathy? Really? That is one of the weakest arguments I have ever seen here. Besides which, you are taking what he said completely out of context to further your hissy fit.

I do not know this for a fact, but I o feel pretty confident in it and am sure others would agree:
Let's give the masses who have been waiting for quite some time a choice - keep waiting per normal, or, get into BMQ and start the acreer right now but ditch the gadgets for the BMQ phase.

What do you think would be the more popular choice?

I am sorry you have such serious issues facing you. Perhaps you should have considered another line of work. The CF does not owe you your job, nor do they need to change specifically to suit you.

Edit: Beadwindow summed it up rather nicely, no need for me to continue. And MilPoints inbound.
 
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