Black Watch not allowed to follow traditional regimental parade

[scoutfinch]

My compliments to you then Sir, you are one of the exceptions to the rule. With regard to the severity of Offences, somehow I think that a Child being hit by a Speeding Motorist in a 30 Km School Zone to a Military Unit Marching to a Church Parade, with a Police Escort in defiance of a City Ordnance is not even in the same league.

As far as slagging your Career, its strange you should find it derogatory rather than complimentary.

As far as the Law and Punishments being equally applied to certain Professions, like the Wealthy,Famous and the Powerfull and if it does in your area, let me know and I'll move there right away.

First of all, it's ma'am and not sir.

I believe in the Rule of Law.  Moreover, I believe in the fundamental tenet of the rule of law that no one is above the law.  No one. 

Nor do I  believe that comparing apples and oranges is productive in any discussion regarding ethics and principles so I will ignore your ridiculous comparisons other than to note that it has gone from speeding in a reduced speed zone to possible negligent homicide when it suited your purpose.

On a principled basis, no military unit has the right to do what it wants.  It does what it is told.  It is not up to the military to make policy.  The CDS advises the various levels of government on policy options and subsequently implements policy as per the government's requirements.  The military is a tool of the government.

No, I do not believe the wealthy, famous or powerful should be exempt from equal application of the law.  Nor should the military or police.  Especially not the military or the police. 

I can find no reasonable excuse for this event.  Perhaps you could enlighten me as to why such a demonstration of lack of discipline is okay... but please note in advance that most people won't accept "the BW didn't like what they city said" as a sufficient reason... largely because it is irrelevant whether they liked it or not. 

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Now "D. Krystal" posting is idiotic, it seems you are the only one and continuing to attaching, Veterans starting a Insurrection and Assassinating people to his post.

I clearly expressed that he might have worded his support and feelings slightly different, but we knew what he meant and where he was coming from.

My objection was that he was ridiculed un-necessarily (by you) and you've just done it again.

A rose by any other name is just as sweet; by that token, a pile of festering garbage called a "thoughtful post" still smells just as bad.

However I applaud you for your Righteous and Lawbiding stance in this matter. I'm sure it is well received at the Black Watch RHR Armoury.

Well you should. On the other hand, what the Black Watch (Royal Highland Regiment) of Canada thinks of me I find as irrelevant as your opinion on this matter. *shrugs* If the Black Watch wishes to get pissy about being held to the law, that's their problem I guess. Montreal City Council should make an exception for them if they really want to, but if it is honestly a safety issue then you have the attendant liability issues as well. I rather doubt the RSM will be handing out waiver forms on parade.

 

[davidk]

From today's Montreal Gazette...

City Hall Bristles Over Black Watch Parade

JEFF HEINRICH, The Gazette
Published: Tuesday, May 09, 2006
  The city of Montreal is upset that soldiers of Canada's oldest Highland regiment broke the terms of a permit Sunday and marched on Sherbrooke St. W. , a route reserved for the transport of hazardous materials.
  The Black Watch (Royal Highland Regiment) of Canada should not have disobeyed orders of the civil authority to keep its annual parade off Sherbrooke, an official said yesterday.
  "We're extremely concerned, because the Black Watch is the army," said Jacques-Alain Lavallee, spokesperson for the downtown Ville Marie borough, which issued the permit.
  "What sort of society is it when the army doesn't comply with the rules? They're soldiers defying authority."
  Not at all, retorted Lt.-Col. (retired) Bruce Bolton, the Black Watch's former commanding officer.
  "We were never defiant," said Bolton, who was at the march. "We went with the police, it was all discussed. They said: 'We have no problem with you going along Sherbrooke St.' If they had said no, we would have gone the other route. We cannot and will not portray ourselves as going against the law."
  The borough is checking with the police force to see why, at the last minute, it allowed the parade on Sherbrooke. Under a 2002 agreement struck between the city and the Quebec Public Security Department in the wake of the 9/11 attacks in the U.S., Sherbrooke was named Montreal's sole downtown east-west corridor for the transport of dangerous goods.
  By banning parades on Sherbrooke, the authorities aim has been to put marchers and pedestrians out of harm's way in case of an accident in which toxic substances are spilled, and also to prevent congestion of emergency vehicles by crowds. Despite risk to residents, the downtown route was chosen partly because it's close to the city's major hospitals, which regularly transport potentially dangerous biomedical substances between sites.
  Supporters of the Black Watch say the no-Sherbrooke rule shouldn't apply to their parade, because it does not attract a large public, does not involve many marchers - at most, 200 - and only lasts a short time. And they argue Sherbrooke has been the parade's route for the past 74 years, and shouldn't be changed now for any reason.
This year, though, it was supposed to. According to the permit, the parade route Sunday - from the Black Watch armoury on Bleury St. to the regimental Church of St. Andrew and St. Paul, 12 blocks away on Sherbrooke - was to have led along de Maisonneuve Blvd. and back along Ste. Catherine St. W. Instead, at the last minute, the Black Watch reservists, veterans, church officials and supporters took Sherbrooke the whole way, the same route the parade has been taking since it was first held in 1932.
  A Gazette report yesterday indicated a police officer in charge of the escort allowed the march to head on Sherbrooke after organizers asked him to.
Bolton, who was not on hand for the discussion, said he understands that the police simply took the easiest option: Sherbrooke, the clearest, least convoluted route.
"I get the impression that (they said) 'The official route is that (one on the permit), but look, there's nothing happening on Sherbrooke St., so go use it,' " Bolton said."From their point of view, it was easier, as well. I mean, it would have been a zoo to go the other direction."
  But the city wants answers.
  "There seems to have been a door opened by one policeman, and we're trying to check that before we take any action," Lavallee said.
  One thing the city can't do is fine the regiment for using Sherbrooke. The city's regulations haven't been updated since 2002 to specifically designate Sherbrooke as a dangerous-goods corridor, even though Quebec considers it so.
  "It's not a bylaw; it's a policy, and there are no provisions in the policy for fines," Lavallee said.
  Asked who gave the order to ignore the permit, a spokesperson for the Montreal police said yesterday afternoon he'd check, but did not get back.
jheinrich@thegazette.canwest.com
© The Gazette (Montreal) 2006

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=1e271d10-2d7c-4821-9272-724d5ef158e5&p=1

I think this article makes it pretty clear just what happened and why. The RHC technically broke no laws in doing what it did. I'm not going to comment on whether what happened was right or not, but if anything else develops I'll be sure to clue everyone in.

 

[FastEddy]

First of all, it's ma'am and not sir.

I believe in the Rule of Law.  Moreover, I believe in the fundamental tenet of the rule of law that no one is above the law.  No one. 

Nor do I  believe that comparing apples and oranges is productive in any discussion regarding ethics and principles so I will ignore your ridiculous comparisons other than to note that it has gone from speeding in a reduced speed zone to possible negligent homicide when it suited your purpose.

On a principled basis, no military unit has the right to do what it wants.  It does what it is told.  It is not up to the military to make policy.  The CDS advises the various levels of government on policy options and subsequently implements policy as per the government's requirements.  The military is a tool of the government.

No, I do not believe the wealthy, famous or powerful should be exempt from equal application of the law.  Nor should the military or police.  Especially not the military or the police. 

I can find no reasonable excuse for this event.  Perhaps you could enlighten me as to why such a demonstration of lack of discipline is okay... but please note in advance that most people won't accept "the BW didn't like what they city said" as a sufficient reason... largely because it is irrelevant whether they liked it or not. 

On the suggestion of friend, and in the light of new evidence, I now regard this tirade useless but humorous.

Have a nice day Ma'am.

 

[big bad john]

I might not like the law that has been changed.  There are venues for amending the law.  But the military, especially the military is not above the law.  I have seen too many countries where this is not the case.  Tradition does not come at the expense of breaking any law no matter how inane or unfair it might seem on the surface.  A soldiers duty is to uphold the right and justice of his country.  That means the laws he doesn't like also.  My 2 cent rant.  But it seems in this case a bylaw wasn't broken.

http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=1e271d10-2d7c-4821-9272-724d5ef158e5&k=65087&source=somnia

City hall bristles over Black Watch parade
 
JEFF HEINRICH
The Gazette


Tuesday, May 09, 2006


The city of Montreal is upset that soldiers of Canada's oldest Highland regiment broke the terms of a permit Sunday and marched on Sherbrooke St. W. , a route reserved for the transport of hazardous materials.

The Black Watch (Royal Highland Regiment) of Canada should not have disobeyed

orders of the civil authority to keep its annual parade off Sherbrooke, an official said yesterday.

"We're extremely concerned, because the Black Watch is the army," said Jacques-Alain Lavallee, spokesperson for the downtown Ville Marie borough, which issued the permit.

"What sort of society is it when the army doesn't comply with the rules? They're soldiers defying authority."

Not at all, retorted Lt.-Col. (retired) Bruce Bolton, the Black Watch's former commanding officer.

"We were never defiant," said Bolton, who was at the march.

"We went with the police, it was all discussed. They said: 'We have no problem with you going along Sherbrooke St.' If they had said no, we would have gone the other route. We cannot and will not portray ourselves as going against the law."

The borough is checking with the police force to see why, at the last minute, it allowed the parade on Sherbrooke.

Under a 2002 agreement struck between the city and the Quebec Public Security Department in the wake of the 9/11 attacks in the U.S., Sherbrooke was named Montreal's sole downtown east-west corridor for the transport of dangerous goods.

By banning parades on Sherbrooke, the authorities aim has been to put marchers and pedestrians out of harm's way in case of an accident in which toxic substances are spilled, and also to prevent congestion of emergency vehicles by crowds.

Despite risk to residents, the downtown route was chosen partly because it's close to the city's major hospitals, which regularly transport potentially dangerous biomedical substances between sites.

Supporters of the Black Watch say the no-Sherbrooke rule shouldn't apply to their parade, because it does not attract a large public, does not involve many marchers - at most, 200 - and only lasts a short time.

And they argue Sherbrooke has been the parade's route for the past 74 years, and shouldn't be changed now for any reason.

This year, though, it was supposed to. According to the permit, the parade route Sunday - from the Black Watch armoury on Bleury St. to the regimental Church of St. Andrew and St. Paul, 12 blocks away on Sherbrooke - was to have led along de Maisonneuve Blvd. and back along Ste. Catherine St. W.

Instead, at the last minute, the Black Watch reservists, veterans, church officials and supporters took Sherbrooke the whole way, the same route the parade has been taking since it was first held in 1932.

A Gazette report yesterday indicated a police officer in charge of the escort allowed the march to head on Sherbrooke after organizers asked him to.

Bolton, who was not on hand for the discussion, said he understands that the police simply took the easiest option: Sherbrooke, the clearest, least convoluted route.

"I get the impression that (they said) 'The official route is that (one on the permit), but look, there's nothing happening on Sherbrooke St., so go use it,' " Bolton said.

"From their point of view, it was easier, as well. I mean, it would have been a zoo to go the other direction."

But the city wants answers.

"There seems to have been a door opened by one policeman, and we're trying to check that before we take any action," Lavallee said.

One thing the city can't do is fine the regiment for using Sherbrooke. The city's regulations haven't been updated since 2002 to specifically designate Sherbrooke as a dangerous-goods corridor, even though Quebec considers it so.

"It's not a bylaw; it's a policy, and there are no provisions in the policy for fines," Lavallee said.

Asked who gave the order to ignore the permit, a spokesperson for the Montreal police said yesterday afternoon he'd check, but did not get back.

jheinrich@thegazette.canwest.com

© The Gazette (Montreal) 2006

 

[McG]

Recognizing the supremacy of the civil authority is a military tradition so old that it pre-dates any regiment of the Canadian Army.  We inherrited it from the British, and the importance of this tradition is so great that even the US kept it around after the gaining its independance (while it was going to great lengths to distance itself from the British).

Which tradition is most important.  This one or that of a parade route?

 

[Lost_Warrior]

The city passed a bylaw which was 100% their right to do.
The city gave the BW 3 or 4 years to adjust to the new law (law was passed in 02)

Where did you get your info from?  There currently is no by-law.  It was never passed in 02.  The fact of the matter is, the bi-laws were last updated back in 2002, and the last time they were, they did NOT include sherbrooke as a HazMat transport route.  The city has since then made it a policy, but it was never an actual law.  This is why the city cannot fine the regiment.  They didn't break any laws.

And the fact is, the police did not simply "turn a blind eye"    They saw the Sherbrooke route that day as being empty and clear of any major traffic, so the Black Watch CO asked the police officer in charge, and he gave the green light.  The cop knew that if they went the route the city wanted them to go, it would have been chaos with traffic, and would have caused a lot more danger to drivers and pedestrians than the original route.

In the end, no laws were broken, and the decision was made in good judgement.  Call it what you want.

 

[JackD]

Lost_warrior - Thank-you for clearing this up - one hopes that no political flack makes trouble for the sensible officials who made the decision...

 

[Michael Dorosh]

The cop knew that if they went the route the city wanted them to go, it would have been chaos with traffic, and would have caused a lot more danger to drivers and pedestrians than the original route.

I'm calling BS on the "danger" part. Police are there to direct traffic and ensure parades are safe, no? If the police are trying to say it would have been "dangerous" to take another route, the only explanation for that would be they weren't doing their job properly.  A parade is not a hazardous undertaking no matter which street one uses - if the police are doing their jobs.

 

[geo]

Lost warrior,
I stand corrected on the "by-law" thing.....it's a directive....

Under a 2002 agreement struck between the city and the Quebec Public Security Department in the wake of the 9/11 attacks in the U.S., Sherbrooke was named Montreal's sole downtown east-west corridor for the transport of dangerous goods.
  By banning parades on Sherbrooke, the authorities aim has been to put marchers and pedestrians out of harm's way in case of an accident in which toxic substances are spilled, and also to prevent congestion of emergency vehicles by crowds. Despite risk to residents, the downtown route was chosen partly because it's close to the city's major hospitals, which regularly transport potentially dangerous biomedical substances between sites.

Regardless of what the police official allowed/permitted, the city had clearly told the BW that they were not to use a certain route & had given them a number of years to get their act together.
The decision of the BW to flout the City's authority is not appropriate AND the unit (and all other units lodgered in Montreal) may pay dearly for it - the next time we come a calling to city hall.

 

[Lost_Warrior]

I'm calling BS on the "danger" part. Police are there to direct traffic and ensure parades are safe, no? If the police are trying to say it would have been "dangerous" to take another route,

Call BS all you want.  The City's planned route was down St Catherine Street.  Have you been down there recently?  The whole street is torn up with construction.  Had the parade taken the last lane open to traffic, there would have been chaos.    You wern't there, so you don't know.

 

[Lost_Warrior]

Regardless of what the police official allowed/permitted, the city had clearly told the BW that they were not to use a certain route & had given them a number of years to get their act together.

Fair enough, but the planned route by the city was under heavy traffic and construction recently (St Catherine) and to essentially cut off the cities core street without much prior notice to motorists or pedestrians (Its not like the Santa Clause Parade where everyone knows weeks before hand that St Catherine will be closed, and it gives them the time to plan their routes differently), there would have been utter chaos.   

I have been downtown on nights where police have small areas of the street blocked and its chaos....I can only imagine a parade moving through.

The police made the right choice, and it did not hurt anyone.  It was more conveniant for city go'ers and pedestrians/motorists.

End of story.  Anyone else who wants to beat a dead horse may continue doing so.  It doesn't make your argument right.  If you don't live in Montreal, or wern't there, you really cant fully grasp the situation.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Fair enough, but the planned route by the city was under heavy traffic and construction recently (St Catherine) and to essentially cut off the cities core street without much prior notice to motorists or pedestrians (Its not like the Santa Clause Parade where everyone knows weeks before hand that St Catherine will be closed, and it gives them the time to plan their routes differently), there would have been utter chaos.   

I have been downtown on nights where police have small areas of the street blocked and its chaos....I can only imagine a parade moving through.

The police made the right choice, and it did not hurt anyone.   It was more conveniant for city go'ers and pedestrians/motorists.

End of story.  Anyone else who wants to beat a dead horse may continue doing so.  It doesn't make your argument right.  If you don't live in Montreal, or wern't there, you really cant fully grasp the situation.

I don't need to live in Montreal to know the difference between convenience and public safety. So which was it?

 

[Lost_Warrior]

I don't need to live in Montreal to know the difference between convenience and public safety. So which was it?

A little from column A, a little from column B.

People driving downtown drive like maniacs.  The street itself has 2 of its 3 lanes closed off for constructions, which leaves a tight passage for much of it because of the equipment parked on the sides.

If a parade pops up in the middle of no where, where these people plan on driving down, it will cause a huge build up of traffic, and a lot of stupid people.  I have seen people drive like mad regardless of pedestrians in the street.

There wasn't enough police on the scene to conduct the amount of traffic control that would have been accumulated by the parade....so there would have been a lot of @ssholes on the road taking advantage of that.

So like I said.  A little from column A, and a little from column B

The proper judgment was made by the police based on experience.  Unless you have had more experience with traffic on the streets of Montreal, you can’t really argue.  Perhaps you can source where you call BS on?  Do you have any first hand (or second hand) experience with traffic conduction on Montreal streets with the amount of Police man power that the parade had on hand?

Until you do, please respectfully bow out of this debate.

 

[McG]

You wern't there, so you don't know.

I suspect you were not a party to the conversation in which the police escort and the regiment chose the alternate route either. 

 

[Lost_Warrior]

I suspect you were not a party to the conversation in which the police escort and the regiment chose the alternate route either. 

You suspect correct, so unless we get new info where the CO threatened the cop, we can't dismiss what happened, and the facts. 

But I was in fact there.  The Sherbrooke route was clear.  The route the city anted them to go was congested with massive lines of traffic and idiot drivers.

Had the parade gone there, I am more than certain (as well as the police, who pareol and manage those streets) that some @sshole would have tried something, or the population would have "revolted".....and it would have caused a scene.

I commend them on their thinking and decisions, and anyone who actually "KNOWS" the city of Montreal, would too.


PS: This isn't Alberta where the people throw flowers into the street at the sight of soldiers.  This is Quebec (Montreal) where they throw eggs and rocks.  (and that story will best be reserved for another time)

 

[Michael OLeary]

If someone actually has some new facts (about the specific incident, not Montreal traffic theory) to add to the thread, please contact a Moderator.