Bemoaning The Lack of Sports in The CF? [merged thread]

[TangoTwoBravo]

See just having winter and summer competitions would be a start provided it wasn't just hockey, volleyball, soccer, rugby.  Never heard of such competitions in Ontario. As far as base teams go, for Pet there seems to be only Soccer and Hockey and maybe women's softball, intramural ive seen soccer, baseball, soccer, ball hockey, obviously running teams ad nauseum.

Well, Petawawa certainly had Ex OLYMPIAN BEAR which was a week long culmination of the Base winter sports program. It also included non-traditional events such as crossfit and pugil fighting. When I was there (just left this APS), there were plenty of sporting activities. Parking that for a moment, how can you discount sporting concentrations that have "just hockey, volleyball, baseball, ballhockey, running teams." Those seem like a pretty good foundation to a sporting program. What's missing? We also had Ironman which gave folks a goal and plenty of training time to achieve it.

Most if not all major units have a weekly sports program in addition to their PT program. Training tempo gets in the way a lot of the time, but my point is that there are plenty of sporting activities. 

 

[McG]

1 CMBG has something similar with Ex STRONG CONTENDER every January, and Ex TOUGH CONTENDER being conducted this year as the summer time counterpart.  There are also the Mountain Man, Iron Man and Bush Man series of races in Edmonton, Petawawa and Gagetown respectively.

I think the sport/competitive culture is still there.  We don't need special programs catering to elite (or uniformed semi-pro) athletes as a measure of sports in the CAF.  The measure is at the unit and base level.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

  We don't need special programs catering to elite (or uniformed semi-pro) athletes as a measure of sports in the CAF.  The measure is at the unit and base level.

I agree entirely. Our focus should be on unit and base level sports that allow the greatest number to participate.

 

[Biggoals2bdone]

You are saying what I am saying, but in addition to it, i'm also saying base sports should be more then just hockey, ect... hence my example with boxing when each base and/or unit had a champ/representative.

I'm not saying only the elite should be catered to, although I do think military gyms/training facilities should be outfitted as elite training facilities which in my entire time in the CF i've found most if not all to be pretty woeful in terms of quality AND quantity.  Usually if you buy lower quality stuff its to have more of it in terms quantity...not so with this.

This year, Military World Games sports include:

Aeronautical Pentathlon (we don't compete)
Basketball
Beach Volleyball (demonstration sport)
Boxing (we don't compete in, we actually prohibit it)
Equestrian (we don't compete in)
Fencing ('ve never heard of us doing this outside of RMC)
Football (Soccer)
Judo (we don't compete)
Military Pentathlon (we don't compete)
Modern Pentathlon (we don't compete)
Naval Pentathlon (we don't compete)
Orienteering
Parachuting
Sailing
Shooting
Swimming
Taekwondo (never heard of this outside RMC)
Track and Field (we don't compete)
Triathlon
Volleyball

The other thing, i've found with some digging that the majority (approx 85-90%) of the athletes sent to the world military games are officers...food for thought.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I think we really should just work on keeping all the soldiers/sailors/airmen(airwomen?) in basic shape before we worry about sending a team to compete in 90% of those sports.

There are always plenty of local competitions in the various disciplines that there really is no excuse not to do some kind of physical activity.  I think money is much better spent on supporting a few base teams in a house league then getting a single 'elite' athelete to a world military games, where they will face actual professional athletes who happen to be in uniform.

 

[dimsum]

I was very disappointed when I googled "Aeronautical Pentathlon" and it had no flying events.  :blotto:

 

[GnyHwy]

The saddest thing about the sports above, is that most of them are individual sports.  Isn't the military a team effort?  ???

 

[daftandbarmy]

The saddest thing about the sports above, is that most of them are individual sports.  Isn't the military a team effort?  ???

Yes, of course, that's why we all get 'Team PERs', right?  ;D

 

[Biggoals2bdone]

I think we really should just work on keeping all the soldiers/sailors/airmen(airwomen?) in basic shape before we worry about sending a team to compete in 90% of those sports.

There are always plenty of local competitions in the various disciplines that there really is no excuse not to do some kind of physical activity.  I think money is much better spent on supporting a few base teams in a house league then getting a single 'elite' athelete to a world military games, where they will face actual professional athletes who happen to be in uniform.

The thing with that is it is very dependant on where you live, like i've pointed out before in Pet, if you're not into running, hockey, soccer and volleyball...you basically need to drive all the way to Ottawa (at the nearest!) for any other competitions, I don't even want to think about what its like in a remote place like Cold Lake or some other place similar.  Others have pointed out it is different across the board, although in doing a little digging, i've mainly found more support for my argument:

Mountain Man = long distance, several hours...mainly running
Iron Man = long distance, several hours...mainly running
Bush Man = long distance, several hours...mainly running
RCAF Run = long distance, several hours...running
Canadian Army Run = long distance, several hours...running
Navy 10km Run = long distance, several hours...running
Canadian Forces Triathlon = long distance, several hours...mostly running
These are the ones I found with about only 5mins of searching, guarantee there are more.

I know plenty of people love their running...but A LOT of us hate it too, and only like running when it involves chasing food down or in a game/sport of some kind.

As far as actual sports go, from digging around i've found that yes other bases do offer more stuff, but definitely not all of them are in the same boat. As to the $$ and support issue, that's where we disagree, no offense to anyone here, but I don't see why we have to spend so much money funding several different hockey teams (as an example) AND money for ice rink on base, when there is pretty much always at least ONE ice rink in town AND an old timer/house league in town as well, yet we have our own.  Hockey probably being the most expensive sport we support, soccer is cheap yet we have trouble maintaining fields properly. I would rather cut some of the ice rink money for example and either better equip other sports teams or facilities, but that's me.

The saddest thing about the sports above, is that most of them are individual sports.  Isn't the military a team effort?  ???

I see where you're getting at, but look back centuries...hand to hand combat (a singular event) is central to any military, conditioning (i.e spartans) was primarily a solo event as well, i mean many boys/men were gathered about in the same area but physical conditionning, sword/spear practice was 1vs1, as well as wrestling/pankration. Same with the original olympiad which if i'm not mistaken was atleast in part fueled by militaries of the time.  I don't see anything wrong with individual sports in regards to military applications. Lets be fair sometimes its hard to get 5-12 guys all together at the same time. Although we sell the team image of the military to the public, personal experience is many people are just out for their own.

How much of the apparent shift can by tied to the move from internal PERI pers to PSP?

I was never in when the PERI were around, but since they were military I can only guess they were all about push-ups, running, smoking and hockey probably, so I would say PSP move is maybe not a bad thing...now if only they hired PSP who actually trained and looked like it as well as having knowledge that would be another step.

I agree. That's the secret of success behind a 'house sports league' approach. Everyone gets a chance to try their hand at everything.

And based on what kind of teams the troops want, you can engage with local civvy teams as part of a fun type of COMREL program. We frequently played rugby and soccer teams from a variety of local communities in various countries and it was good fun for everyone, especially when the 'British Army' lost!

This approach works well in small european countries because everything is so close, but here in Canada it would be more difficult to do because the majority of our bases are in bumf*ck nowhere. I do think it would be nice though if we could do it.

Well, Petawawa certainly had Ex OLYMPIAN BEAR which was a week long culmination of the Base winter sports program. It also included non-traditional events such as crossfit and pugil fighting. When I was there (just left this APS), there were plenty of sporting activities. Parking that for a moment, how can you discount sporting concentrations that have "just hockey, volleyball, baseball, ballhockey, running teams." Those seem like a pretty good foundation to a sporting program. What's missing? We also had Ironman which gave folks a goal and plenty of training time to achieve it.

Most if not all major units have a weekly sports program in addition to their PT program. Training tempo gets in the way a lot of the time, but my point is that there are plenty of sporting activities.

you bring up a good point about olympian bear, the only downside of it, is that most units scramble to put teams together the week before the actual event, and even the sports that are more singular in nature are contested as team events during olympian bear.

In regards to your foundational comment, I get we're in Canada, hockey is everywhere and it is not leaving, cool.  BUT not everyone plays or wants to play, agreed though if you have hockey, volleyball, soccer and basketball those are the "foundation" of a sporting program, but you said it yourself FOUNDATION, aka not the end all be all, more should be added on is what I am saying.  As for the running teams...if it was a proper track and field team with running as a component I would be all for it. I mean we have track and field teams in elementary schools...how does the military not have one.  Also majority of these don't leave opportunities for people who aren't skilled in any of those sports, which all concentrate primarily on the same modalities.

As far as most major units having weekly sports programs, other then maybe the INF, ARTY, ARMD, ENG...i've NEVER heard of this.  For the past 2 yrs other then special training i've written memos for, I averaged PT probably once a month at best, our unit throws any morale booster like PT or sports out the window for productivity all the time. There is a sports afternoon at most once a month, probably closer to once every 2-3months.

With regards to what is missing/what they should add to the "foundational":

Track & Field
Aquatics
Boxing
Wrestling (the real kind)
MMA
I would say Olympic weightlifting also because the CF has a history in it, AND would greatly help mechanics that we use everyday (squatting, etc) as well as strengthen CF members whom many are in need of strength and added muscle for injury prevention.

I could add more but I know to stay within.

 

[Crispy Bacon]

IMHO, the fitness culture is just one of hundreds of "cultures" we should be indoctrinated into as CAF members.  Our "culture of fitness" should also be met with a culture of constant self-improvement, continuous innovation, putting the right person in the right job at the right time, continually updating our credentials, education and experience, becoming better accustomed to providing customer or client services, and better organizing ourselves to work laterally, both internally and externally.

Fitness is just one component of a good CAF member.  We've all seen those guys who can pull off 100 pushups but have trouble running more than 400 metres.  Well, we also need to be careful that we don't have amazing athletes playing on national sports teams who can't function at the very basic level at their day job.  We need to be careful that we're not promoting fitness at the expense of education, or promoting fitness at the expense of something more important to get that person to do his/her job.

It also comes down to money and priorities, and I'd much rather see money spent on getting people educated and better qualified at doing their jobs than sending them on national and international sporting competitions.

:2c:

 

[Biggoals2bdone]

IMHO, the fitness culture is just one of hundreds of "cultures" we should be indoctrinated into as CAF members.  Our "culture of fitness" should also be met with a culture of constant self-improvement, continuous innovation, putting the right person in the right job at the right time, continually updating our credentials, education and experience, becoming better accustomed to providing customer or client services, and better organizing ourselves to work laterally, both internally and externally.

Fitness is just one component of a good CAF member.  We've all seen those guys who can pull off 100 pushups but have trouble running more than 400 metres.  Well, we also need to be careful that we don't have amazing athletes playing on national sports teams who can't function at the very basic level at their day job.  We need to be careful that we're not promoting fitness at the expense of education, or promoting fitness at the expense of something more important to get that person to do his/her job.

It also comes down to money and priorities, and I'd much rather see money spent on getting people educated and better qualified at doing their jobs than sending them on national and international sporting competitions.

:2c:

Conversely we all know people who can run like the wind but can't do a push-up or pullup to save their lives.

I totally agree that balance needs to be stricken between work capabilities and sports capabilities, I also 150% agree with your first paragraph. I'm not only advocating we support high level athletes, but that we aka the CF support/recognise a greater range of interests and sports.  I know hockey, soccer, et all will not be displaced anytime soon, but I think there should be the availability for a wider range of activities/interests/sports at the grass roots level, and that we all would benefit from it.  Realistically some of the sports i've mentioned adding are not that expensive to maintain a program.

Another thought I had was how are teams run in the CF?  I've never seen or heard of sports teams doing team S&C, only thing if ever i've seen or heard of is team practice now and again.  Are teams leaving out one of the major components of performance? Also are their any coaches and trainers for teams? Are they military or civilian and how are they chosen?

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

As far as most major units having weekly sports programs, other then maybe the INF, ARTY, ARMD, ENG...i've NEVER heard of this.  For the past 2 yrs other then special training i've written memos for, I averaged PT probably once a month at best, our unit throws any morale booster like PT or sports out the window for productivity all the time. There is a sports afternoon at most once a month, probably closer to once every 2-3months.

With regards to what is missing/what they should add to the "foundational":

Track & Field
Aquatics
Boxing
Wrestling (the real kind)
MMA
I would say Olympic weightlifting also because the CF has a history in it, AND would greatly help mechanics that we use everyday (squatting, etc) as well as strengthen CF members whom many are in need of strength and added muscle for injury prevention.

I could add more but I know to stay within.

In terms of major units having PT and sports programs, Armoured, Infantry, Artillery and Engineers pretty much covers a huge chunk of a brigade. Dare I ask which unit you are in? If you are doing PT once a month then perhaps there is not a CF problem but rather a problem in your unit or section?

I am guessing that you do not like running nor participating in team sports. That is unfortunate, but it does not mean that the CAF automatically has a problem. Wanting to bring back sports that the Spartans practiced might not be the solution. Looking at your other sports, do not expect boxing, wrestling or MMA to come into the CF sports program. With boxing and MMA the risks outweigh the benefits, while wrestling is somewhat specialized. I was in a major unit recently where we had a track and field meet. It was more fun than everyone (including myself as the OPI) expected, but I don't see it as a regular occurrence. It took a massive amount of support from outside agencies to pull off and I am not sure that the juice would be worth the squeeze in the long run.

Most bases have a good sports program, and there are many clubs for other activities such as Karate under the PSP club umbrella. Once again, if you are only doing PT once a month at your unit then you should look inwards for your problems and solutions, not worrying about specialist sports.

 

[stealthylizard]

The sports culture will return over time.  We just had a decade where the focus for everyone was training for Afghanistan.  Now that has come to a close, things may return to "normal", until the next big mission comes along.

 

[Biggoals2bdone]

In terms of major units having PT and sports programs, Armoured, Infantry, Artillery and Engineers pretty much covers a huge chunk of a brigade. Dare I ask which unit you are in? If you are doing PT once a month then perhaps there is not a CF problem but rather a problem in your unit or section?

I am guessing that you do not like running nor participating in team sports. That is unfortunate, but it does not mean that the CAF automatically has a problem. Wanting to bring back sports that the Spartans practiced might not be the solution. Looking at your other sports, do not expect boxing, wrestling or MMA to come into the CF sports program. With boxing and MMA the risks outweigh the benefits, while wrestling is somewhat specialized. I was in a major unit recently where we had a track and field meet. It was more fun than everyone (including myself as the OPI) expected, but I don't see it as a regular occurrence. It took a massive amount of support from outside agencies to pull off and I am not sure that the juice would be worth the squeeze in the long run.

Most bases have a good sports program, and there are many clubs for other activities such as Karate under the PSP club umbrella. Once again, if you are only doing PT once a month at your unit then you should look inwards for your problems and solutions, not worrying about specialist sports.

Oh I totally know there's a problem within my Pl, but i'm not in a position to change anything, unless I had some kind of official recourse.  The line we're fed is work is more important then anything else...UNLESS its a Bde/Bn/Coy ruck march or something along those lines.

I guess I should also clarify that by Inf, arty, armd, and eng, I meant not the units themselves but members of those trades.  Everyone else other then cbt arms and especially support trades/purple trades get boned when it comes to PT and sports no matter what unit they are at, because there is so much crap to get done.

Do you mind if I ask how the track and field meet involved so much support? I mean from my POV, it would be one of the simpler events to hold,if you have the following contests:
-100m
-200m
-400m
-800m
-1500m
-3000m
-5000m
-10 000m
these races are all done on the track minus the 10 000m and possibly the 5000m, most bases have outdoor 400m tracks, and they are pretty easily found throughout towns/cities

Long Jump
Triple Jump
High Jump
Shot put
Most high schools have all the prerequisites for these, as well building a jumping sandpit isn't very expensive.

Pole Vault
Discus throw
Javelin
Hammer throw
I could see being pricey or more difficult to find.

I definitely do NOT like running (majority of the joint/health issues I have are due to running), but I have nothing against team sports, in high school and Uni I actually participated in team sports, i've just always preferred sports that were singular in nature such as karate/martial arts/MMA, powerlifting, bodybuilding, strongman, track & field, I didn't prefer them because they were singular though, I preferred them because of the actual sport, the events contested.

I'm not basing the problem with MY issues solely i'm but one person of MANY who aren't satisfied with the state of things. I mentioned the spartans as an example i'm not saying we should necessarily emulate them in everyway.  I could also easily use the USMC or US army who have MMA programs for example, and they actually have branch wide competitions.

I'm not expecting boxing or wrestling or MMA to be supported anytime soon by the CF, I was just saying I think they should, I don't believe they will though, and that's a shame.

you call them specialist sports and that I don't understand, because they aren't.  They may seem like it to you, but thats perspective I feel the same about soccer and hockey and running, that they are specialist sports.  All the sports I mentioned adding have great health benefits.  I only do Unit PT once a month, I train on my own time 4-6 times a week.  Like I said at my level I cannot really influence my Pl cmdr or anyone who would make the call about PT, nor can I change their views on PT, most people higher up in the food chain of my Pl are out of shape and don't exercise.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Our unit track and field meet involved the various running events (100, 200, 400, 800, 1,600 (I think) and 3,000. There was also a relay race. We also had long jump, high jump, shot put and javelin. Everyone had to sign up for one event. To run a meet properly you need experienced judges/time keepers. The high jump, shot put and javelin were also a bit of a novelty. Guys signed up and had a couple of sessions to try and learn the events. It was fun, but it took outside support to run properly - the provincial track and field folks came in to help through the linkages of a senior PSP/ex-PERI staff guy. Those connections do not always exist and can wear out over time when they do exist. You can only call in favours so often.

I suppose that a base could a base have a track and field league, and track and field days can make a fun diversion in the spring (especially with a beer tent). Just remember that we are not high schools with gym teachers. The bad news for your perspective, though, is that the running events are the easiest for an army unit to organize and train for.

I understand that some units/sections have a hard time designating a set time for the whole group to go on PT together. They should, however, be giving individuals time to get PT done. The major units you mention, though, make up the majority of the folks on an operational army base.

By all means make suggestions to your chain of command, and I applaud that you are trying to set up a club for a sport/activity that you have an interest in.

 

[Biggoals2bdone]

I'm really not trying to play dumb or anything, just trying to understand the logic of using provincial level judges/refs for a small time most likely non-sanctioned (by the Canadian Track and field association) competition, I mean its not like anyone could have qualified for nationals at the competition based on the pure fact that it more then likely was not a sanctioned (by governing body) competition.  Could you not have spared yourself some time and headache and just given stop watches to a dozen people and bang done, as well as just getting reading materials about the rules/regs of these events?

Don't get me wrong i'm all for having third party LEGIT scores/times because to often I find in the CF scores get fudged.

I'm just going from a few other competitions i've heard of in the military, like the powerlifting competition in gagetown I believe, that was just a fun/familiarity competition, it was no way a legal event by any powerlifting federations definition, because:
- did not use KG plates
- did not use compliant barbells or racks
- Competitors did not wear proper attire
Like I said would it not have been easier to not get all the "experts" from a planning POV.

As to the whole familiarity of events issue, if these were held more regularly that wouldn't be an issue.

The running events are the easiest to organize you're right, but to me that also speaks to how certain people are lazy (people planning things), same with PT, how many higher ups don't think of anything or don't want to try to get any courts or equipment so RUN it is.  I disagree that they are the easiest to train for, is it the easiest to just go out and run yes, but lets face it majority of people in the CF short of being competitive runners don't train all that well when it comes to running, and running related injuries are pretty high up there whether we're talking about acute injuries or chronic/repetitive use ones.

We're not a high school with a gym teacher definitely not...we SHOULD be better! We have federal funding as well as many other avenues for funds, we also have PSP staff and countless members who have experience in various sports.  On the "we should be better note"; my high school of about 250 students was better equipped for sports then many bases i've seen...and my HS sucked at sports. 

I don't know where PSP or whomever blows their money, but NOT ONE fitness/Strength & conditionning training facility is outfitted to a respectable level considering who and how many they are supposed to be catering to, not saying we should have olympic calibre equipment in every gym, but definitely as well outfitted as a respectable university athletics dept in saying that i'm trying to point out that having a sand pit for long and triple jump, a shot put throwing circle + shot puts, etc...are examples of things that we shouldn't have to borrow from a local HS.

I've already asked my CoC if we could do offset PT times to make up for it, so say I get PT 0700-0900, well you could give another person 0900-1100 or 1330-1530...that got SHOT DOWN quick, got told we all have to do it at the same time or no go.

About the club I am starting up, I just got tired of hearing about all these local competitions that I give zero F's about, left right and centre, and nothing that has remotely interested any of my buddies, so decided to take charge and make it happen, although it may be a few months or even a year before we have a competition we will (different disciplines) it will not only cater to a different crowd BUT also educate people about other sports that are less mainstream, which will hopefully bring in more interest and so on and so forth.

 

[PuckChaser]

With regards to what is missing/what they should add to the "foundational":

Track & Field
Aquatics
Boxing
Wrestling (the real kind)
MMA
I would say Olympic weightlifting also because the CF has a history in it, AND would greatly help mechanics that we use everyday (squatting, etc) as well as strengthen CF members whom many are in need of strength and added muscle for injury prevention.

I could add more but I know to stay within.

After 2 pages, you finally did get to listing what sports you want to see added. I noticed one thing: They're all individual sports. CAF sports program is basically built on team sports (save badminton, triathlon). So is your big issue here that you don't want to do the team sports thing?

I agree we need to open some things up, and track and field would be an excellent way to do that.

 

[devil39]

The saddest thing about the sports above, is that most of them are individual sports.  Isn't the military a team effort?  ???

Great idea....I'd love a team Unarmed Combat Competition....but we got rid of that with the RV series of exercises and Platoon nights out in Wainwright.

 

[Biggoals2bdone]

After 2 pages, you finally did get to listing what sports you want to see added. I noticed one thing: They're all individual sports. CAF sports program is basically built on team sports (save badminton, triathlon). So is your big issue here that you don't want to do the team sports thing?

I agree we need to open some things up, and track and field would be an excellent way to do that.

I don't see how me not being a hockey player, soccer player, or basketball player,etc = me not wanting to do the team sports thing...
I've already said before i've played team sports competitively before, my interests lie elsewhere but I have nothing against them.  I don't think you would have launched that comment at me if I loved running though. I don't have a passion for any of the sports in the sports program as you've outlined, has nothing to do with team or individual, has purely to do with interests.  You don't hold it against someone or berate people for liking/competing in soccer or hockey or any particular sport do you?

Also as a rebuttal, the CAF sports program in addition to hockey and soccer includes:
Taekwondo*
Swimming*
Squash*
Running*
Triathlon*
Badminton*
Golf*
Basketball
Men's Hockey
Women's Hockey
Old Timers Hockey
Ball Hockey
Men's Volleyball
Women's Volleyball
Men's Slo-pitch
Women's Slo-pitch

7 out of 15 are solo sports...AND that's counting volleyball, hockey and slo-pitch twice or more each respectively which you technically don't need to, because all the other sports are not divided by sex, aka you don't see a header saying Men's triathlon, Women's triathlon...if you count it grouped then more then half the sports in the CAF program are NOT team sports, so its a moot point.

The sports contested in CISM events all include several solo competitions, but many events that are at the CISM games, are not supported by the CF, and I find that strange, since many militaries world wide compete there, it begs the question why does the CF not support certain sports like:

- Boxing
- Judo
- Wrestling
- Football
- Track & Field
- Fencing
to name a few

 

[PuckChaser]

Your answer to "why" is that I'm willing to bet not enough people in the CAF would participate or would have any sort of interest to do it. With an era of diminishing sports budgets and slashed national/regional sports, how many of those sports are just too cost prohibitive to get off the ground? Wrestling and judo would be easy enough, but is the money there to supply the gi's for Judo at $150 a pop? Boxing needs a ring, gloves, speed bags, headgear, etc. Renting off base isn't a COA, that's way too expensive. Ditto football, and why would they allow contact football and not contact hockey? How many pers would actually play flag football? I'm betting not many.

You want to do track, awesome. Get a proposal together to run a unit competition. Have it go well, and get your CO to go to the base commander and suggest an intra-base competition. Snowball effect from there.