Bayonet obsolete? Not yet, apparently -

[daftandbarmy]

More bayonet work, this time from the Royal Anglians who apprently were doing some 'winkle picking' - well done lads

How Royal Anglians killed 1,000 Taliban
By Thomas Harding
Last Updated: 1:53am GMT 17/11/2007



The intensity of combat in Afghanistan has been laid bare as one Army regiment revealed that it had fired one million rounds, killed 1,028 Taliban and lost nine men in a six-month tour of duty.
 
Members of the Royal Anglian Regiment receive medals at Elizabeth Barracks after returning from their tour of Afghanistan

At times, fighting saw 1Bn of the Royal Anglians having to "winkle out the Taliban at the point of a bayonet", said Lt Col Stuart Carver, the commanding officer, at the battalion's medal ceremony.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/11/16/wanglians116.xml

 

[geo]

D&B,  while the bayonet appears to be an anachronism in modern warfare, it is a clear & definite signal to the troops receiving the order that they are about to close with & destroy the ennemy. 

Not an accident but an intentional act.  As such, the troops receiving the order can compose themselves - knowing what is about to happen and what they have to do.

As such, there will always be a place for the bayonet

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Right geo you never know when you would have to do Self Extraction Drills.

 

[NL_engineer]

Right geo you never know when you would have to do Self Extraction Drills.

cleaning rods work just as good for that.

Not an accident but an intentional act.  As such, the troops receiving the order can compose themselves - knowing what is about to happen and what they have to do.

As such, there will always be a place for the bayonet

It also has a sociological effect on the enemy

 

[Nfld Sapper]

cleaning rods work just as good for that.

It also has a sociological effect on the enemy

Cleaning rods are best used as trip wire feelers, for prodding they suck eggs as they don't have a sharp point to "dig" into the ground.

 

[OldSolduer]

Absolutely not.
They are handy for all kinds of things....and fixing bayonets on the end of your C-7 is one.
There is a psychological advantage to those who "fix bayonets". Most people don't like pointed objects (spears or bayonets) being thrust at their throat, eyes or stomach. Couple this with the person who is doing the thrusting looking like someone out of the lunatic bin...and screaming like one...I think you get my message.
In my opinion, we should do a bit more training in this area. The only time infantry do it are on BIQ formally. I do not know if any other trade trains on the bayonet.....I don't believe so.

 

[HItorMiss]

They are teaching Bayonet combat in basic now so it is taught to all trades in the CF, now what the majority do with that training after they graduate basic that is beyond me....

 

[Nfld Sapper]

They are teaching Bayonet combat in basic now so it is taught to all trades in the CF, now what the majority do with that training after they graduate basic that is beyond me....

I believe that is only for the Reg Force Courses as I have the most recent TP for the Reserve BMQ and there is no mention of bayonet combat in it.

 

[OldSolduer]

Glad to see that is taught to all. Should be refreshed yearly, like PWT, etc

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I'd prefer more range time over bayonet drills

 

[HItorMiss]

I believe that is only for the Reg Force Courses as I have the most recent TP for the Reserve BMQ and there is no mention of bayonet combat in it.

I never talk about anything with the reserves in mind. I have little time for the reserves as a training system and so I never look into what they are doing.



Quag,

I can't see why doing a once a month referesher on point, parry, smash etc etc would impact range time heck you get more range time why not do the Bayonet drills as background...2 birds one stone as it were.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I have no problem with doing the drills, just would like to get my shooting skills up first and if its a secondary thing I am down with that, and yes I know it takes minimal money and equipment to make it happen.

 

[vonGarvin]

I never talk about anything with the reserves in mind. I have little time for the reserves as a training system and so I never look into what they are doing.



Quag,

I can't see why doing a once a month referesher on point, parry, smash etc etc would impact range time heck you get more range time why not do the Bayonet drills as background..2 birds one sto as it were.

Before bulletmagnet gets flamed, I would like to point out that he clarified his statement: nothing wrong with reservists, just that he doesn't like the reserves as a training system.
Now, for a proper conduct of bayonet drills, it should, IMPO, be conducted as a range.  Could be done as background activity, but I agree with Quag in that the focus should be on musketry skills over bayonet skills.  But, before we talk about bayonet drills, let's talk about getting to the ranges on a regular and effective basis first.

 

[Nemo888]

I think the new bayonet looks so useful I wouldn't have to bring my own kinfe anymore. But it's just the old US Marine KA BAR from WWII.

 

[OldSolduer]

You're looking at a few hours, tops, once per year. If the Army would drop some of the irritating briefings (ie SHARP, DIVERSITY  etc) that I had to endure, then the time is there. Plus, there are always those days with nothing on the schedule, so why not fill it.
What would be wrong with doing it on morning PT???
Also, range time = money. Range time is always good, BUT there are only so many bullets to go around, and you can't have them all.

 

[KevinB]

You're looking at a few hours, tops, once per year. If the Army would drop some of the irritating briefings (ie SHARP, DIVERSITY  etc) that I had to endure, then the time is there. Plus, there are always those days with nothing on the schedule, so why not fill it.
What would be wrong with doing it on morning PT???
Also, range time = money. Range time is always good, BUT there are only so many bullets to go around, and you can't have them all.

Range time is needed full stop.

As for bayo training - C9's, M203's etc have removed the majority of bayonet capable weapons from your entity.  Add in suppressors and its a no brainer as to what you'd rather have on the end of the weapon.
  Bayo training is very awkward to teach - its either done scripted or with Pugil sticks which dont resemble a rifle with bayonet on it at all.

You can quote whatver units you like about the bayonet - and blah blah blah spirit of the bayonet -- your way better off to be competent with the weapons and tools at your disposal - for the CF that means accurate fire - using the Night fighting gear that is issued as well.

Most of the units you discuss are equipt fairly archaicly and dont have half of these items -- plsu they are stuck in bizarre stupidty about crossing open ground for no reason and some other various "romantic" notions.

 

[OldSolduer]

SO its a problem to outfit a company of troops with the C7 with bayonets fixed to do bayonet drills?
And did anyone mention charging over open ground? NO!
I agree with you regarding live fire, don't get me wrong. BUT...what is wrong with pugil training to reinforce aggression, technique etc?
Like I said before, THAT could be company PT one morning per month.
Too many platoon commanders have no imagination or are forced to schedule long ruck marches or runs in order to satisfy some aribtrary figure set by the CO or the OC. This would be somewhat of a break from long boring marches or long runs.

 

[aesop081]

Cleaning rods are best used as trip wire feelers,

Hum, no !!

Theres a reason why we always used wire as trip-wire feelers. Cleaning rods have nowhere near the flexibility required to detect a trip-wire without setting it off.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Glad you said it first.  As a trip wire feeler, a cleaning rod makes a damn fine trip wire activator.  A long stalk of grass would be preferable.

 

[KevinB]

SO its a problem to outfit a company of troops with the C7 with bayonets fixed to do bayonet drills?
And did anyone mention charging over open ground? NO!
I agree with you regarding live fire, don't get me wrong. BUT...what is wrong with pugil training to reinforce aggression, technique etc?
Like I said before, THAT could be company PT one morning per month.
Too many platoon commanders have no imagination or are forced to schedule long ruck marches or runs in order to satisfy some aribtrary figure set by the CO or the OC. This would be somewhat of a break from long boring marches or long runs.

Most units have amounts of the C8FTHB upper - why alter to train the bayonet?
 Secondly using a PEQ/PAC and light makes even the C7 bearers unweildy
- is bayonet fighting really a good option with 60lbs of kit on you?
I firmly beleive in training as you fight and thus I see the bayonet as a waste of weight, and training time.
  Like hand to hand, bayonet skill is an art that 1 time a month will give very little.  
Weight training and circuit training will built a better soldier than that will.
A muzzel strike will do enough damage - and if your out of ammo, their will be other weapons and others with ammo around that can no longer fight.