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Bayonet obsolete? Not yet, apparently -

  • Thread starter Thread starter pcain
  • Start date Start date
Infidel-6 said:
Besides how do I fit a bayonet on this  ;)

Workgear.jpg


and it hangs out a bit below my Tux  ;D
Iraq013.jpg

Agreed. Might not work for you, but what about Pte. Bloggins in c/s 11C? Unlikely that he'll have the high speed kit, includung the backup Glock for IAs, anytime before 2050.
 
More fodder for you bayonet fans out there... and can we get a bayonet for the Leopard?

For Joffre, as well as the other proponents of the new doctrine, the "supreme weapon" of the infantry was the bayonet and the mission of the infantry was "glorious above all." France's confidence in the bayonet even extended to the Conseil Superieur de la Guerre adopting a bayonet for the cavalry in February 1912.

offense a outrance
http://www.worldwar1.com/france/jpff1914.htm
 
daftandbarmy said:
More fodder for you bayonet fans out there... and can we get a bayonet for the Leopard?

For Joffre, as well as the other proponents of the new doctrine, the "supreme weapon" of the infantry was the bayonet and the mission of the infantry was "glorious above all." France's confidence in the bayonet even extended to the Conseil Superieur de la Guerre adopting a bayonet for the cavalry in February 1912.

offense a outrance
http://www.worldwar1.com/france/jpff1914.htm

Ok Daft - now you are living up to your moniker.  Verdun + Bayonets - Machineguns = Slaughter + Mutiny.  Not necessarily the best of plans.  :)
 
daftandbarmy said:
For Joffre, as well as the other proponents of the new doctrine, the "supreme weapon" of the infantry was the bayonet and the mission of the infantry was "glorious above all." France's confidence in the bayonet even extended to the Conseil Superieur de la Guerre adopting a bayonet for the cavalry in February 1912.

offense a outrance
http://www.worldwar1.com/france/jpff1914.htm

And here I thought most of the threads here were struggling to get the Army from the 1990s over the millenial dateline, and you're trying to make the case for the bayonet based on the First World War.  Why don't all we just watch Zulu, admire the bravery of Tommy Atkins, and lobby for a return to cold steel and a single shot breech-loader because it's a more efficient mount for the "supreme weapon."

 
I guess I forgot to attach the 'tongue in cheek' smiley face. Oops, they don't have one yet! But I do have a French Lebel bayonet right here ca. 1914. I guess I could fall on that instead ...
 
As usual the debate gets polarized.

If we want to talk about the best weapons for CQB, then sawed off 12 gauge shotguns, sharpened entrenching tools, shot gloves or brass knuckles, metal bosses on elbow and knee pads, ASP batons and ferocious training in Krav Maga or related arts is required.

If we are talking about mental and physical conditioning for combat and a secondary ability to deal with "less than lethal" situation such as CCO, guarding and handling prisoners, then there is a good case to be made for the bayonet (especially for a line troop who does not have the high speed kit).

History is not a reliable guide, it was well known as far back as the American Civil War that only about 1% of battlefield injuries were caused by the bayonet, and accounts of sudden encounters between troops at short range often describe rock throwing or swinging rifles and muskets like clubs, rather than a sudden slash and thrust of cold steel. (The soldiers in "Saving Private Ryan" threw helmets at each other, which is also recorded as a real reaction). Actually stabbing or knifing people is an anomaly.

On the other hand, the actual threat of cold steel often caused the enemy morale to collapse; in the book Forward into Battle describes the British "thin Red Line" achieving it's shock effect by suddenly revealing themselves at close range (after lying down in the tall grass or a reverse slope), firing one volley and immediately advancing with bayonets leveled.

Like I have said on this thread, I prefer my mayhem to be 100m away from me, but I am realistic enough to recognize that in today's environment a bayonet may be useful, and certainly the real or potential positives (including fitness and mental conditioning) outweigh minor inconveniences like taking up some real estate on the load carrying equipment or the extra bit of weight.
 
Agreed Arthur, it just has to be a balanced decision, not one made principally on the romanticism of the bayonet.

As I have stated elsewhere:

First, let’s update the bayonet. We continue to issue every soldier a bayonet that does not justify its own weight. Replace it with a sturdy, well-honed utility knife with a high-quality steel blade. Leave the bayonet mounting hardware on the hilt for the rare cases in which it becomes necessary. Teach the soldier how to handle a rifle and bayonet, but let’s bring in a professional in improvised fighting techniques to help develop a useful combat system for it. Parade square parries and thrusts are only appropriate if the enemy has had similar instruction and is willing to fight by mutually understood rules. The Military Manual of Self-Defence (55) offers a series of aggressive alternatives to traditional bayonet fighting movements, its focus more on disabling the opponent than parrying until a clean point can be made. While not necessarily offering a full replacement to classic bayonet training, it does show that more options exist.

One possible approach is to incorporate in Army physical fitness training a structured martial arts program. A discipline can be selected to develop confidence, balance, reflexes, and close combat tactics. This program could include combat techniques; both unarmed and with a variety of weapons, including the bayonet, within a progressive format. This program could lead to every field soldier having recognized skill levels in a close quarter combat system that supports rather than confines reflexive responses in hand-to-hand combat. It should also provide advanced training and continuous skill maintenance throughout a soldier’s career.

We must continue to train our soldier in close quarter combat techniques, but it should be based on a rational analysis of the purpose and components of that training untainted by the romanticism of tradition.

Referenced footnote:

(55)  Herbert, Colonel Anthony B., U.S. Army (Ret), Military Manual of Self-Defense; A Complete Guide to Hand-to-Hand Combat, New York, Hippocrene Books, 1984
 
One of the best Close Combat tools is your helmet -- drive the bridge of the NV mount thru his face.

Teaching Martial Arts to soldiers is typically counter productive -- as they will need to do it in their gear.  Those who remember back to the golden days with the SSF UACC and the Demo team -- remember only the tgt was wearing a flack vest...  I've said and so have a countless number of BTDT tyoes here that is current operations the carbine or rifle is simply incapable of mounting a bayonet.  Running "foreign" weapons classes once every two weeks woud be a MAJOR improvement to the ability of the soldier in the complex envrionment -- getting low on ammo or out -- guaranteed there will be EN or FR weapons around...

Those who currently avocate mounting the bayonet I would state do not have a good background in Urban Combat or have any recent operational experience.

Shotgun = Breaching tool.  Too high recoil, too low ammo capacity, and too imprecise.

There is a dedicated CQB Forum at Lightfighter, its moderatored by REAL BTDT guys will extensive training in CQB
 
More bayonet fixing going on in Afghanistan.

Royal Marines Dawn Assault

See 7:38 in this clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiE_KxvwZyQ&feature=related

Continued action in this clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njlr9VT1GG0&feature=related
 
So foolishly carrying too much kit, utterly exposed

and using a bayonet... ::)

 
daftandbarmy said:
Exactly. You can't expect to win a medal if you don't have a bayonet fixed. ;D

I will concede that point -- the citation sounds better too.


However I'm a big fan of shooting people dead from as far away as possible -- I'd rather carry a 2lb handgun than a 1.5lb bayonet...
 
Infidel-6 said:
However I'm a big fan of shooting people dead from as far away as possible -- I'd rather carry a 2lb handgun than a 1.5lb bayonet...

The more distance between me and Achmed is always better. If it gets up close I'd agree with you, pistol over knife anyday! ;D
 
Infidel-6 said:
I will concede that point -- the citation sounds better too.


However I'm a big fan of shooting people dead from as far away as possible -- I'd rather carry a 2lb handgun than a 1.5lb bayonet...

have to agree there on both counts "co-ax, 1000, ON",... Damn that's right, not my job anymore to run turrets,.... *sigh*
 
Classic Far Side cartoon dealt with this issue (looking for the actual picture:)

"Harold was cornered by the street ducks, when suddenly, he remembered the 12 gage"
 
These are the most dramatic images of British soldiers on the front line ever shot by the troops themselves.

They show paratroopers and Royal Marines fighting in Sangin province at the end of September in the most fierce exchanges of the controversial Afghanistan campaign.

The pictures are stills from high-quality videos shot unofficially by troops who strapped mini-cameras to their helmets before storming towards enemy positions with bayonets fixed.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=414531&in_page_id=1770
 
The hardest embed: Going native with the Royal Marines

Terrill became the oldest person and the only civilian ever to pass the course. But it was still only preparation for the real challenges which came just a few weeks later, when his adopted unit, 11 Troop of M Company, 42 Commando, found themselves in Helmand:

"On one occasion there was a company assault planned," he recalled. "We went in under cover of night, commando style. But it all hit the fan as the sun came up. There was an enormous firefight.

"I've been in war zones before, but this was different. At one point we fixed bayonets ready for close-quarter combat. It was interesting that my training stood me in very good stead: I did what I was told to do."

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/PeopleInDefence/TheHardestEmbedGoingNativeWithTheRoyalMarines.htm
 
More bayonet fixing going on... well, if those bloody Paras were more careful, perhaps they wouldn't need to fix them more often

Conflict through a lens

GUNS AND CAMERAS: Sergeant Will Craig in Afghanistan

'FIX bayonets,' said the British officer about to lead an assault on a Taliban position in Afghanistan.
It could have been an order made 150 years ago when the armies of empire wore red instead of khaki and fought battles with cold steel and on horseback instead of the modern weapons we see being used today.

Troops fighting hand-to-hand with bayonets fixed is not what you envisage when you think of modern conflcts, but this is the reality of the so-called war on terrorism.

http://www.iomtoday.co.im/slideshows/Conflict-through-a-lens.3440558.jp
 
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