B Fleet divestment & B vehicle rust-out (Split from: TAPV thread)

[Brasidas]

Hope springs eternal.

Drawback to comms/LS/CP availability is, at least from Armd Recce perspective, is while the MS-based CP was pretty good (for a September ex), it'll be bloody cold for our December, January and February ex's...and there was no step-up CP. We were so low on vehs and veh comms, we couldn't have one. So when we were stretched to the comms limit, tac pause, pack up and move.

Ouch. Cargo milcot with two manpack RRB and vixams?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Get something like this http://www.tufport.com/utility-work

But get it with detachable legs so units can swap it out or even set up the cube with a generator to be the CP while the truck does something else. Truck breaks, unhook cube jack it up, pull truck away, back another truck under it.

 

[George Wallace]

Hope springs eternal.

Drawback to comms/LS/CP availability is, at least from Armd Recce perspective, is while the MS-based CP was pretty good (for a September ex), it'll be bloody cold for our December, January and February ex's...and there was no step-up CP. We were so low on vehs and veh comms, we couldn't have one. So when we were stretched to the comms limit, tac pause, pack up and move.

Oh you young pups!  I am sure recceguy will have something to say about this as well.  ;D

 

[Kirkhill]

And we're back....

You have the Sea Can shelters coming on line.  A 350/3500 series pickup with a 25 to 30 foot trailer can haul that.  They could also haul the Weatherhaven TRECC shelters that are compatible with internal transport in a Chinook.  They could also transport Bv 206s and ATVs.
The Bv206s can also haul the trailers.  The Chinooks can haul the Bv206s.

In addition Hercs can haul the Bv206 and the Sea Cans

Intermodal transport comes to the Canadian Army

 

[chrisf]

Get something like this http://www.tufport.com/utility-work

But get it with detachable legs so units can swap it out or even set up the cube with a generator to be the CP while the truck does something else. Truck breaks, unhook cube jack it up, pull truck away, back another truck under it.

Or just take our existing kit and put it back onto a pickup? The pods haven't changed in a long time, just the vehicle underneath. Shouldn't* be a problem to swap the pod from a rusted out LSVW cp onto a MILCOT and away you go.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

In theory you are correct, but I am sure the army will find a way to make it harder than it needs to.

 

[George Wallace]

Or just take our existing kit and put it back onto a pickup? The pods haven't changed in a long time, just the vehicle underneath. Shouldn't* be a problem to swap the pod from a rusted out LSVW cp onto a MILCOT and away you go.

Actually, if I remember correctly, the pods from the 5/4's did have to be modified for the LSVWs, so it is not always a simple one for one change. 

 

[Rocky Mountains]

Reserves should be equipped with mostly civilian pattern vehicles and they should be repaired at civilian shops.  So what if everyone would miss the blackout driving experience but you don't get good blackout driving experience when walking.  I've seen 4 out of 28 vehicles serviceable with the rest waiting for parts or the will to actually repair an ancient vehicle.  The military service technicians don't seem to spend a lot of time fretting over a reserve training schedule.

 

[George Wallace]

Reserves should be equipped with mostly civilian pattern vehicles and they should be repaired at civilian shops.  So what if everyone would miss the blackout driving experience but you don't get good blackout driving experience when walking.  I've seen 4 out of 28 vehicles serviceable with the rest waiting for parts or the will to actually repair an ancient vehicle.  The military service technicians don't seem to spend a lot of time fretting over a reserve training schedule.

For the most part, Reserve units, and many Reg Force units, have civilian pattern vehicles for administrative and non-tactical use.  It is also Trade dependent as to what vehicles a unit would require.  Even Infantry units need military pattern vehicles to deploy/transport troops on exercise within the Trg Area.  Civilian pattern buses/mini vans really don't cut it while doing tactical moves in one of our training areas.  I suppose all the Infantry units can send their B Vehicles off to a Service Bn and let them be the "Truckers" and "Bus Drivers", and I am sure that the Service Bns would love to have more vehicle.  It will not work very well for the Armour units and other units that need vehicles with good off road capabilities.

 

[GnyHwy]

MilCOTS are an interim band-aid at best.

Yeah, they'll get you by, but if the cut is deep enough, you will still die. 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

It's why the Brit's went with the Saxon's for their territorial units, all commercial parts, except for the armour bits. I know they were not that great but still they provided them with real armour that did end up getting used overseas.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Actually, if I remember correctly, the pods from the 5/4's did have to be modified for the LSVWs, so it is not always a simple one for one change.

I don't think that the pods salvaged from the 5/4s were greatly modified to fit the LSVWs as much as they were refurbished and updated to extend their life.  I know that a number of the CPs/Vans/Ambs in my unit at that time in the mid-1990s were in pretty poor condition (rust through, leaking, damage, electrical issues) when they were turned over to the project.  They had been in service shy of twenty years, about the same amount of time to present date since the LSVWs and refurbed pods came into service.  As for the actual installation, it probably wouldn't have been too difficult to swap out the 5/4 pods onto the LSVW chassis.  I remember looking at the underside of the LSVWs when the new vehicles with updated boxes arrived back then.  It had been of interest to me, not just as an OC who had to use them, but as a private (in the same unit in the 1970s) one of the first jobs I had been given after reporting into the unit was to to help (as dumb labour) the mechs install the boxes on the brand new 5/4's.  Knowing the history of how the pods were originally bolted onto the chassis (there had been a couple of instances of boxes falling of the 5/4's before the bolting arrangement was corrected), I was naturally curious that the connection was secure.

 

[chrisf]

Actually, if I remember correctly, the pods from the 5/4's did have to be modified for the LSVWs, so it is not always a simple one for one change.

I can't imagine it was any sort of major modification, minor changes in bolting arrangements at most

Bit of minor welding and a bit of drilling holes at the most, stuff that could be done at the first line maintenance level with a parts kit and some simple drawings if so directed.

Anything mounted in an S250 shelter could be moved to a milcots or other pickup even more easily. Just dropped into the box, strap it down, and off you go.

I realize the military will always find a way to make it more complicated, but if they wanted a quick solution compatible with current vehicles, that's it.

 

[MilEME09]

Or just take our existing kit and put it back onto a pickup? The pods haven't changed in a long time, just the vehicle underneath. Shouldn't* be a problem to swap the pod from a rusted out LSVW cp onto a MILCOT and away you go.

or an MRT/URK for that matter just use the same frame as the linesmen MILCOT, should in theory be able to handle it, though i get the feeling we wouldn't be able to experiment untill the warrenty if gone on the MILCOTs.

 

[dapaterson]

The LUVW MilCOTS were purchased roughly a decade ago.

I'm pretty sure the warranty is up.

That said, LCMMs do maintain configuration control on fleets to keep the Bright Idea Fairies at bay - a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and there are lots of dangerous people out there...

 

[chrisf]

The issue of the bright idea fairies and the milcots already came up with CMTC wainwright and their homemade "super-milcots"... dandy little truck after the mods too...

Certainly wasn't suggesting units start doing whatever they like with their trucks, just that moving them to another prime-mover doesn't need to be complicated.

For what it's worth, a lot of what was going around in rumors about the milcots and their warranty was pretty much just that, rumors.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Armoured Recce moves fast. It's our job to find the way for follow on forces at Brigade\ Div level to get through. We can't fiddle and fuck around with sea can CP units on the back of MSVS. We need fast, mobile, small and quick, step up CPs and alternates. Our job is to move forward asap, develop a route and give it to the Brigade\ Div CP. Two dual installation, with amplifiers, mounted in G-Wagons is all that's required. We don't require canvas, briefing tents, places for people to hang around drinking coffee and getting warm. We don't have time. Any stall on our part, causes the lead elements of the Brigade\ Div to climb up our ass and start a caterpillar effect down the whole line. It does nothing but present stationary targets. A true Commander, especially in our role, doesn't need huge mapboards, talc and multi functional pers with pretty coloured chinagraphs.

We had a LSVW CP unit until it was taken away. It was a resource hog. There was more admin time on paperwork wondering who had borrowed it, what they had broken, where it was and how we were going to get it back.

It was an anchor to what our role was. It became a camper for certain individual higher ups with a single subordinate to man the frequencies. It had a mast, and we could talk to the world, but we couldn't do speedy step ups, especially with said higher up wanting to stay in situ until the rest got out of range, then they'd employ a RRB. It was all ass backwards. It is not the forward elements that are required to stay in touch, the RRB moves to where THEY get comms. Likewise the CP. If they start losing comms with the scouts, THEY move to accommodate. CP's at a Sqn level, are a total waste of time and resources unless properly employed as mobile in a step up context, which again, can be done with a dual installation G-Wagon WITH AMPLIFIERS. I make the last point, again, simply because most Reserve G-Wagons have not got amplifiers and with the current setup cannot send beyond the range of modern walkie talkies. This has been ongoing ever since we had the radios mounted in Iltis. They just won't give us any, then they take the only vehicle capable of maintain contact over distance. :

I'm glad I'm retired. 8)

 

[cupper]

Recceguy brings up a good point about other units "borrowing" or commandeering assets that they feel they have a need for.

We experienced this constantly with Bn HQ using our ML mounted Maintenance Control Office pod (and prior to that the Deuce van) as the Bn CP. It created problems on longer exercises in that we couldn't carry additional parts and tools. And to add insult to injury, a couple of times we were required to remove the pod so the Tpt company could have an additional ML asset.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Armoured Recce moves fast. It's our job to find the way for follow on forces at Brigade\ Div level to get through. We can't fiddle and frig around with sea can CP units on the back of MSVS. We need fast, mobile, small and quick, step up CPs and alternates. Our job is to move forward asap, develop a route and give it to the Brigade\ Div CP. Two dual installation, with amplifiers, mounted in G-Wagons is all that's required. We don't require canvas, briefing tents, places for people to hang around drinking coffee and getting warm. We don't have time. Any stall on our part, causes the lead elements of the Brigade\ Div to climb up our *** and start a caterpillar effect down the whole line. It does nothing but present stationary targets. A true Commander, especially in our role, doesn't need huge mapboards, talc and multi functional pers with pretty coloured chinagraphs.

We had a LSVW CP unit until it was taken away. It was a resource hog. There was more admin time on paperwork wondering who had borrowed it, what they had broken, where it was and how we were going to get it back.

It was an anchor to what our role was. It became a camper for certain individual higher ups with a single subordinate to man the frequencies. It had a mast, and we could talk to the world, but we couldn't do speedy step ups, especially with said higher up wanting to stay in situ until the rest got out of range, then they'd employ a RRB. It was all *** backwards. It is not the forward elements that are required to stay in touch, the RRB moves to where THEY get comms. Likewise the CP. If they start losing comms with the scouts, THEY move to accommodate. CP's at a Sqn level, are a total waste of time and resources unless properly employed as mobile in a step up context, which again, can be done with a dual installation G-Wagon WITH AMPLIFIERS. I make the last point, again, simply because most Reserve G-Wagons have not got amplifiers and with the current setup cannot send beyond the range of modern walkie talkies. This has been ongoing ever since we had the radios mounted in Iltis. They just won't give us any, then they take the only vehicle capable of maintain contact over distance. :

I'm glad I'm retired. 8)

In a perfect world a Reserve Squadron would have 4 troops. One in open top and partly mine-protected G-wagons. A Troop in the armoured G-wagons to provide support. A HQ troop in enclosed G-wagons with the radios and bits required and a Support troop in a larger 1 1/2 ton (Unimog) to provide POL, Rations, Ammo and support weapons.

 

[George Wallace]

In a perfect world a Reserve Squadron would have 4 troops. One in open top and partly mine-protected G-wagons. A Troop in the armoured G-wagons to provide support. A HQ troop in enclosed G-wagons with the radios and bits required and a Support troop in a larger 1 1/2 ton (Unimog) to provide POL, Rations, Ammo and support weapons.

That perfect world hasn't existed in the Reserve Squadron in over sixty years.  A Reserve Squadron has usually been lucky to field one Troop, sometimes two.  In fact, it usually takes the whole Reserve Regiment to field that/those Troops.