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Attack Helicopters

Slim said:
The U.S. uses Warrant Officers as helo pilots and they are quite successfull at it from the few that I've met and worked with...

Start a program where (non-university) Guys are recruited, trained and given their wings. they would hold the rank of technical Warrant Officer...

Or you could just open up the OCTP or CCEP programs again. It would save a little on the logistics of creating a new rank, you wouldn't be limited by who can be crew commanders, Aircraft Capts, det or flight commanders since all of your pilots would be officers and you could just send the guys to get degrees later on if it's deemed a requirement (which at present it is).
 
Just remember, Zoomie.. those missiles are made with loving and tender care down in the friendliest of friendly places, the USA.  It helps trade, creates jobs, and makes workers feel all fuzzy inside with pride.

:)
 
I could not find anywhere on this site where the aussis have attack helo's

http://www.defence.gov.au/army/

 
A bit of perspective about armed or attack helicopters. Even powerful machines like the AH-64 have proven vulnerable to small arms ground fire, and helicopters as a whole are rather fragile ("10,000 parts flying in close formation).

Historically, Close Air Support (CAS) was performed by fixed wing aircraft, which can fly faster, carry more payload, and perform manoeuvres which are impossible for helicopters. The A-10 is the modern incarnation, but in the past, the Douglas "Skyraider" was well liked by troops in Viet Nam because it had 4 X 20mm cannon in the wings, a large number of hardpoints for bombs and napalm cannisters, and being propeller driven, could slow down enough to remain on station for a long time, and allow the pilot to accurately engage ground targets.

While SPADs and A-10s are no longer in production, there may be planes with suitable characteristics available. Any zoomies have more up to date information?
 
Can always check this site.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/index.html

But it does not appear that anything other then modified F18's sucha s E/F  varriants for a little while.  Sinc ethe commanche progect was cancelled not much on the radar screen for the US.
 
Wizard - check out this site http://www.defence.gov.au/dmo/asd/air87/main.cfm
it's the Aussies' new toy.
I think the first two arrived recently.  http://www.ausaero.com.au/news/News%20Items/Arrivalarh12.htm

 
[/coloWe are short on pilots now, what AC are we going to get rid of to free-up pilots to fly these pipe dreams?


The U.S. uses Warrant Officers as helo pilots and they are quite successfull at it from the few that I've met and worked with...

Start a program where (non-university) Guys are recruited, trained and given their wings. they would hold the rank of technical Warrant Officer...r]

The Royal Marines and the Army in the UK still have Sgt-Pilots, especially for rotary wing A/C
 
A nice idea that certainly works in your examples... 

I personally don't think it will fly (no pun intended) in the CF.  Our system is so small and interoperability is key for all of our pilots...
 
Does any know if the CF has thought of modifying the Griffin to be a gunship like the Twin Huey's in Vietnam ? They where armed pretty good not perfect but its better than nothing and we already have them plus also have the pilots for them . We could also call the Air Defense platforms so its a nicer name that way those  lovely liberals  wont get offended .  ;D :salute:
 
I must say I found the last post humorous. However, given the fact that our glorious government wants us all to be peacekeepers, I can't see them approving putting implements of death onto a chopper that, in their books, is only going to be used for peacekeeping missions. From my point of view, it would be a good idea as we are an army and armies hold one job above all others, that being fight wars. From what I have learned through talking with NCMs and UTPNCMs, you can't peacekeep if you don't know how to fight. The world is growing more and more dangerous yet the government seems to believe that peacekeeping forces can survive on a minimal military budget. If we cannot fight to defend ourselves, how can we fight to protect people in the nations where we are peacekeeping? Like it or not, J.L. Granetstein was right when he said that the days are coming when the government will tell our army to go fight a war and the are will say "Sorry, we don't do that anymore".
 
Well Big Foot thanks for answering my question . But you think they would do something like that . They could have it like a package on for combat missions like Afghanistan than take the extra weapons off for peace keeping missions like Bosnia ? Or would that be to Difficult to maintain ?
 
Various packages are possible for the Griffon, including door gun mounts, as well as "kits" to mount hardpoints for various guided and unguided missile systems. The basic problem is the Griffon has a rather small payload to begin with, so you would not be able to carry much ordinance.

Other problems are the Griffon is unarmoured, so the pilot would have to hang back a fair distance to keep from being shot down. This sort of negates any range advantage you might have with long range missiles.

Lastly, there are not a lot of Griffons to begin with. If you mount an "air defense" kit on a Griffon, that means the plane is no longer available to be an ERSTA platform, or a Medivac helicopter or whatever. The Brigade commander would have to make some very careful trade-offs before arming his helicopters.

Given the lack of fixed wing CAS machines and the unsuitability of Griffons, the Predator UAV has been used as a CAS platform with some success. While fairly small and limited, it is better than nothing at all...
 
Despite what you all want to believe, arming the Griffon was trialed. It consisted of a "plank" across the cabin with the Hellfires and mini guns mounted externally on the end of the plank. I don't recall the exact findings of the trial, but I think it was put on hold until an upgrade of the main gearbox and rotor mast is completed.
 
a_majoor said:
Other problems are the Griffon is unarmoured, so the pilot would have to hang back a fair distance to keep from being shot down.

Griffons in theatre are armoured against small arms fire - it weighs alot and reduces the range, but it makes the pilot and FE feel more secure.
 
The Griffon can be as much...or as little as the CF wants it to be, ranging from some "power and performance" mods to a major upgrade to a UH-1Y-like configuration.

A tac hel pilot now flying Sea Kings and I were the two guys who set up the "weaponization" configuration trial noted by Inch, above.  

We begged, borrowed and in some cases....well anyway, we assembled a collection of various kits from our contacts throughout the US military-industrial complex and tacked it all onto one of the Griffons (CH146401) that was being used for initial CH146 pilot training down in Fort Worth, Tx.   The "plank" was made by the same company that makes the SOA-kit used by the 160th SOAR "Nightstalkers", for their AH/MH-6, MH60K and MH-47E/G aircraft.   Armament was: AGM-114K Hellfire, GDAS GAU-19(A) .50 3-barrelled gatling and a CFD low-recoile crew-served 30mm.   To be clear about this, the aircraft didn't fly that way because the airworthiness would have not been worth the effort at the time...the picture was "worth a 1000 words" to let naysayers know it was at least possible.

A Griffon as is could fly with that eqpt seen above and retain about 1 1/2 hours on station.   Add a "power and performance" mod to the engine/tranny (including FADEC fuel control for the engines) and we could lift a bit more for extended operating periods.   If you go all the way up to a "Y" rebuild, [see Bell site here for more Y info]   you could do a fiar bit more....

I would like to make a point about many of the folks saying the Griffon is unarmoured and thus would have to hang back, etc... (this is NOT just regarding a_majoor's comment above, by any means)   We would fly the aircraft where it's required to operate and try to minimize risk to crew with the appropriate measures, personal body armour, aircraft armour, etc... but you can not protect yourself from everything, there will always be risk out there and operating any "weapon system" comes with risks.   That does not mean you "don't operate there"...    Our LAV III's aren't equipped with a bird cage and don't have DAS, so an RPG could take them out in an instant...but you guys still operate them in theatre, right?   Same goes for the Griffon...if it is physically able to fly in the AOR, then it's operation would come with associated risks that must be assessed to determine when and where operations would be undertaken.

On the armed helicopter side of things, the Army is finalizing its statement of required dedicated aviation support to the Air Force through its Capability Development Record process.   Currently it is being reviewed by Gen Caron before he provides Gen Pennie with the consolidated and finalized statement of aviation capability the Army requires.   I can tell you that it does include the requirement for an armed capability, to contribute to networked fires through the provision of precision direct and indirect fires.   Several GOs were very supportive of an ARH capability for tactical aviation and that is what the Army's statement to the Air Force will most likely contain.   More to follow as the papaerwork makes its way from one floor of 101 to another...

Cheers
 
If we arm them does that mean we won't get to paint them pink?  ;D

just for giggles.

In all honesty though it would be nice to see some close air support for the guys on the ground.

As a Seaking pilot what are your thoughts on the new chopper coming in?
 
Wizard of OZ said:
As a Seaking pilot what are your thoughts on the new chopper coming in?

LOL - Duey is a Griffon driver - he stated that he and another Griffon pilot (who now flies the Sea-King) first developed the idea of an armed Griffon.

He is presently attending "Fox-hole U" and would have the most up-to-date information regarding tactical aviation and the future Army plans. 
 
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