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reccecrewman said:
As far as I can tell there is no such plan. Much of the hype of Transformation and Rationalization seems to have been bought, hook line and sinker to the detriment of our most basic Recce Skills.
As far as I can tell there is no such plan. Much of the hype of Transformation and Rationalization seems to have been bought, hook line and sinker to the detriment of our most basic Recce Skills.
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Well, from what I've seen in the past couple of years, with the newbies Gagetown is pushing to the Regiments, something seems to have gone awry in our system. I remember in my Battle School, there was an emphasis on certain skills that are now (at least in evidence of the new guys they keep sending us) not being taught or not a very high importance placed on them. For example - AFV Recognition. For the most part, a good chunk of the new guys can't differentiate between a BMP & BTR. T-55, T-62, T-64 & T-72.................. There's a difference in them? ;D Map & Compass skills are in the toilet.......... Stalking, cam & concealment seem to be forgotten. However, when we're in Garrison, there's many a day that passes when the Troops are just sitting around the Hangar after the floor has been swept and squeegeed with their thumbs up their asses. Why not use that time to go upstairs to the classrooms and get them watching slides of different vehicles at different angles, through thermal and partial clips? Go out into the training area with a map & compass? Cam up and go out and do some stalking exercises? CGT's that are there for the using but hardly ever get booked to keep Gunners up on their drills. There's a million things we could do to make up for our lack of equipment and still get good valuable training and essential skills passed along to our young troops. Plus, these little things I've mentioned could keep youngsters interested rather than them falling into a state of boredom and disenchantment with the Army. "I never saw squeegeeing in the recruiting video" 
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From what little experience I have in Recce (just did my Pres trp ldr's course) it seemed that most of the time when my troop came under contact it was in the form of an ambush. Considering that in a Gwagon doing Mud recce we lack the fancy thermal sensors of a coyote we can only rely on the map and the ground to try and determine where we will be ambushed. I understand that this is part of the job but perhaps the inculsion of an assualt troop to clear areas where ambush is suspected would help us to be more pro-active instead of being forced only to react. Additionaly they can clear obstacals to improve mobility which could'nt hurt. Any thoughts on this from you recce guys?
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Clear obsticles, long range patroling, amushes and abatees are what assault troop did best.
For the normal advice you probably would not have anyone from assault troop with you (maybe a section if you're lucky)
This is where the experience of your car commanders and patrol commanders comes in...They must read the ground and decide for themselves where the potential trouble spots are...
For the normal advice you probably would not have anyone from assault troop with you (maybe a section if you're lucky)
This is where the experience of your car commanders and patrol commanders comes in...They must read the ground and decide for themselves where the potential trouble spots are...
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How about spec fire? Of course this depends on the situation and the environment which you are employed.
Remember that the Ambush occurred during training to assess you ability to react quickly and come up with a plan.
The problem with employing Assault Troop or other members of the Combined Arms Team to check out every ambush site is that you suddenly have no troops on the ground available to do any other task.
At one time there was a push to mount a TUA site on the LUVW C&R to give it limited thermal capability but I don't know where that has gone. Additionally once the ALAWS system is decided upon - which is supposed to be mounted on Armour and Inf Recce vehicles; this should give you some thermal capability as well.
Obstacle clearing will be conducted by the attached engineers who are going to be spread out all over the area of operations.
Remember that the Ambush occurred during training to assess you ability to react quickly and come up with a plan.
The problem with employing Assault Troop or other members of the Combined Arms Team to check out every ambush site is that you suddenly have no troops on the ground available to do any other task.
At one time there was a push to mount a TUA site on the LUVW C&R to give it limited thermal capability but I don't know where that has gone. Additionally once the ALAWS system is decided upon - which is supposed to be mounted on Armour and Inf Recce vehicles; this should give you some thermal capability as well.
Obstacle clearing will be conducted by the attached engineers who are going to be spread out all over the area of operations.
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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As this has been side tracked a bit, I will add this. Back in 1975, when I did my Tp Ldr Crse, we had a Seven Car Lynx troop and two M113 to carry the extra students, who were then used as an Assault Troop. We did all our patrols on the Crse with this set up. It came in handy for training. It really proved a valuable experience.
To this day, I believe that Route, Area and Sector Recces should be done in Seven Car Troops, with an Assault Section attached. If you go much larger, with all the add on luxuries like TOW and that, you are now creating a large Sqn sized organization and in effect not doing Recce anymore, but the actual Advance.
The Assault Troop should be kept as an integral part of the Recce Sqn organization. I believe every troop should have an Assault Section attached to it. The versatility that that Troop would have would be greatly increased.
The Assault Troop has limited mortar capabilities in the 60mm mortar, which may be an asset in a tight situation. They also have Pioneer tools that will also come in handy in the performance of Recce tasks. The Demolition skills that the Assault Troopers have is also a great asset to the Recce Troop. The Recce Troop is constantly under pressure from Higher for information and pressed to speed up their task. The inclusion of an Assault Section will provide them with the resources to maintain a high rate of speed in their tasks.
Back to Cannon Fodder; I don't know all the facts about your training, but in my day, it would have to be an awful large ambush to catch a Recce Troop. Distance (between vehicles) is your friend. I have ambushed a full Seven Car Recce Troop, myself, but it was under "ideal" conditions in an ideal location. A Recce Troop should have approx 1 km and more space between front and rear. Bunching up at Laterals makes for a good Arty Tgt. So, if only your lead Patrol got ambushed, there is no problem. You are doing your job. Shite happens. Information (CONTACT) is sent back. Even no information is information (If you get wiped out and SHQ can't raise you, then they know 'something' is there.).
To this day, I believe that Route, Area and Sector Recces should be done in Seven Car Troops, with an Assault Section attached. If you go much larger, with all the add on luxuries like TOW and that, you are now creating a large Sqn sized organization and in effect not doing Recce anymore, but the actual Advance.
The Assault Troop should be kept as an integral part of the Recce Sqn organization. I believe every troop should have an Assault Section attached to it. The versatility that that Troop would have would be greatly increased.
The Assault Troop has limited mortar capabilities in the 60mm mortar, which may be an asset in a tight situation. They also have Pioneer tools that will also come in handy in the performance of Recce tasks. The Demolition skills that the Assault Troopers have is also a great asset to the Recce Troop. The Recce Troop is constantly under pressure from Higher for information and pressed to speed up their task. The inclusion of an Assault Section will provide them with the resources to maintain a high rate of speed in their tasks.
Back to Cannon Fodder; I don't know all the facts about your training, but in my day, it would have to be an awful large ambush to catch a Recce Troop. Distance (between vehicles) is your friend. I have ambushed a full Seven Car Recce Troop, myself, but it was under "ideal" conditions in an ideal location. A Recce Troop should have approx 1 km and more space between front and rear. Bunching up at Laterals makes for a good Arty Tgt. So, if only your lead Patrol got ambushed, there is no problem. You are doing your job. Shite happens. Information (CONTACT) is sent back. Even no information is information (If you get wiped out and SHQ can't raise you, then they know 'something' is there.).
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George,
I was actually refering to my patrols, my bad for not clarifying it. I think that your right about an assult section. Us reservists could use an ML and pretend its a LAV3 to work with 7 G Wagons. Now we just need enough vehicals and bodies to make this new troop and we can kick some butt. On that note I know that recce normaly would not engage the enemy. But against groups like the taliban, who's best (direct fire) weapon is an RPG, even a Gwagon with a C6 should be able to take them on. Im not saying we should act like tanks but perhaps we dont always need to picket and hand over to the infantry. With (or without) an assault sec we should still have the ability to take on a section or section minus, even with RPGs. Does this sound like crazy talk. Thoughts S.V.P.
I was actually refering to my patrols, my bad for not clarifying it. I think that your right about an assult section. Us reservists could use an ML and pretend its a LAV3 to work with 7 G Wagons. Now we just need enough vehicals and bodies to make this new troop and we can kick some butt. On that note I know that recce normaly would not engage the enemy. But against groups like the taliban, who's best (direct fire) weapon is an RPG, even a Gwagon with a C6 should be able to take them on. Im not saying we should act like tanks but perhaps we dont always need to picket and hand over to the infantry. With (or without) an assault sec we should still have the ability to take on a section or section minus, even with RPGs. Does this sound like crazy talk. Thoughts S.V.P.
Lance Wiebe
Sr. Member
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I recall, way back before the 76 Olympics, the Assault troop had no vehicles. Each Recce Troop had five Lynx and two M113's. When required, the troop would pick up a section of Assault Troopers and carry them to their task.
Post Olympics, the troops lost their M113 (temporarily). Assault troop gained four M113, and TOW troop had four M113. Yes, the Armour had a TOW troop before the Infantry did. After the Leo purchase was announced, it was decided that the Infantry would get the TOW along with the APC's.
For a different reason, each of the troops gained two M113 again. This time the M113's were representing a DFSV, which greatly altered our recce tactics. Tactics tend to change when a big gun is supporting your movement! That concept was shortlived, however. It was, and remains a valid concept, I think.
Post Olympics, the troops lost their M113 (temporarily). Assault troop gained four M113, and TOW troop had four M113. Yes, the Armour had a TOW troop before the Infantry did. After the Leo purchase was announced, it was decided that the Infantry would get the TOW along with the APC's.
For a different reason, each of the troops gained two M113 again. This time the M113's were representing a DFSV, which greatly altered our recce tactics. Tactics tend to change when a big gun is supporting your movement! That concept was shortlived, however. It was, and remains a valid concept, I think.
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Lance Wiebe said:
That was our Light Armoured role days Lance. Kind of a recce by force concept. We were also doing the same thing in 70-71.
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I will throw this out to you Black Hatters: would it be more benificial to have a small dismount team (say 4X troops) in the back of each Coyote recce vehicle, or to back the Coyote recce troop(s) with a separate assault troop?
This question assumes the use of dismasted Coyotes in a recce role, rather than a DFSV or surveillance role.
Over to you
This question assumes the use of dismasted Coyotes in a recce role, rather than a DFSV or surveillance role.
Over to you
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a_majoor said:
personally I would like to see a troop of 'heavy platoon' strength as part of the ordanization that could fight as a unit or be split up to join a troop of 'cars' if and when required. The old model is a good one I think.
They would need (in a perfect world) the ability to do everything from LRRPS to engineer type tasks to heavy armour killing to ambushing to...well I'm sure you all get the idea.
Something that may bear thinking about is adding a few 'fire support vehicles' to the mix (no not the cougar - something new and usefull) that could also be broken down into the troop element or operate as a complete troop of their own.
Just my thoughts.
Slim
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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Putting more than two in the back of a Coyote (sans Surv Kit) would be a rather tight fit.
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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Slim
The LAV Pioneer Vehs and Troop carriers should be the vehicles of choice for the Assault Troop. If they are sent out in Sections with a Recce Troop, they will have the 25s of the Recce Troop for heavy support as they do their tasks.
The LAV Pioneer Vehs and Troop carriers should be the vehicles of choice for the Assault Troop. If they are sent out in Sections with a Recce Troop, they will have the 25s of the Recce Troop for heavy support as they do their tasks.
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George Wallace said:
I know what you're saying George,
We're arguing for the same thing. My only other point is that maybe recce should have the 'nads to 'fight back' as it were. the 25's can't punch thugh heavy armour, can they...Short of a fire mission, or fast air I see that as a problem. My thought was to include somrthing with a bit more juice to it.
McG
Army.ca Legend
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Maybe to solution is a third anti-armour vehicle added to each two car patrol (something like TUA or LOSAT), or to add fire & forget missiles to each Coyote. (both ideas covered in other threads)Slim said:
Getting back to the Assault Troop topic, could its function be replaced by integral infantry and sappers posted into an armd regt?
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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MCG
Assault Troopers are Armour Soldiers who have been trained in Demolitions, basic Pioneer tasks, use of the SEV equip, and Recce Patrolman roles. They cover all the duties of an Engineer and a Infantryman in the Recce Sqn. They are not Engineers, and don't do all the jobs that Engineers do, but are capable of doing all that a Recce Sqn would require; just as the Pioneers did for the Infantry Bns. They like the Pioneers also do Defensive and Offensive Infantry tasks. On top of that, they are Recce Crewmen, who may find themselves in a Coyote, or other Armd posn (used to be tanks around here somewhere.).
To actually bring in Engineers and/or Infanteers to fill the role of Assault Troopers would be a waste of resources to the Engineers and Infantry, and really wouldn't be that great a benefit. They would not be used to Armd practices, nor would they be interchangeable with other Armd Crew positions.
Assault Troopers are Armour Soldiers who have been trained in Demolitions, basic Pioneer tasks, use of the SEV equip, and Recce Patrolman roles. They cover all the duties of an Engineer and a Infantryman in the Recce Sqn. They are not Engineers, and don't do all the jobs that Engineers do, but are capable of doing all that a Recce Sqn would require; just as the Pioneers did for the Infantry Bns. They like the Pioneers also do Defensive and Offensive Infantry tasks. On top of that, they are Recce Crewmen, who may find themselves in a Coyote, or other Armd posn (used to be tanks around here somewhere.).
To actually bring in Engineers and/or Infanteers to fill the role of Assault Troopers would be a waste of resources to the Engineers and Infantry, and really wouldn't be that great a benefit. They would not be used to Armd practices, nor would they be interchangeable with other Armd Crew positions.
The other nice thing about Assault Troop is that it provided a place to put troops who had finished some level of basic soldier training, but hadn't yet been trained on all the high-speed pure recce stuff.
Assault Troop could be led by a 2Lt (backed up by a good Troop WO) a couple of decent MCpls, and stuffed to the gills with Ptes and junior Troopers.
It was a great way to give troops still in the training cycle something fun and productive to do, and a great way to give a young subaltern some leadership experience without needing all the training that is required to lead one of the Recce troops. A big win for everybody involved.
DG
Assault Troop could be led by a 2Lt (backed up by a good Troop WO) a couple of decent MCpls, and stuffed to the gills with Ptes and junior Troopers.
It was a great way to give troops still in the training cycle something fun and productive to do, and a great way to give a young subaltern some leadership experience without needing all the training that is required to lead one of the Recce troops. A big win for everybody involved.
DG
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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DG-41
Yours is a good example of how most Reserve Armour units can use Assault Troop. That is how I learned in the PEIR in the '70s.
In the Reg Force units, it is a different matter. The training that Assault Troopers require is of a High calibre. They are probably the most highly trained in a Recce Sqn, and the Regt. They have a wide range of very broad skill sets and must be proficient in all of them.
Yours is a good example of how most Reserve Armour units can use Assault Troop. That is how I learned in the PEIR in the '70s.
In the Reg Force units, it is a different matter. The training that Assault Troopers require is of a High calibre. They are probably the most highly trained in a Recce Sqn, and the Regt. They have a wide range of very broad skill sets and must be proficient in all of them.
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