Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)

[upandatom]

It should not be a single trade; the sub-occs should be trades unto themselves, and this is a case where they are being (appropriately) treated as such.

I've run line and I've done IT-related taskings; so what? I don't see newer sig ops coming off course being renaissance men who can do everything and anything, and the sub-occs do not seemlessly blend. A lineman who's a qualified sig op det commander is exactly that. An electronics tech who's had sig op trades training shoved into his schedule isn't just a sig op.

You shove everybody through a common 3's and all you're doing is discouraging the guys who were motivated for the other trades to look elsewhere, rather than solve the problems of the sig op trade.

Yes, the new "trade" is a done deal, but continuing to expect it to deliver the ridiculous promises its salesmen made is foolish. A final answer on what many of us expected, either LCIS being the only ones to keep spec pay or no one getting it, will actually make things better rather than unconvincing promises of "we could all get spec pay".

:nod: :nod: :nod:

Could not agree more,

 

[LCIS227]

And yet the word SPECIALIST at the end of all our trades regardless of sub-occ shouldn't mean spec pay?

Someone can get out and make more money as a tech? Sounds great, release.

So by your logic, a jealous CORE ACISS wants spec pay? Sounds great, release and join as a tech.

Your all or nothing attitude is exactly what got the branch in such a mess. You're part of the problem, not the solution.

 

[PuckChaser]

So by your logic, a jealous CORE ACISS wants spec pay? Sounds great, release and join as a tech.

Your all or nothing attitude is exactly what got the branch in such a mess. You're part of the problem, not the solution.

Back up the hate train here, buddy. I think LCIS (now CST) got a giant shaft on this deal, especially since I've heard a rumour the pay review came back as them getting spec returned and DSigs delaying it for a "better" solution. The perfect way to empty out a trade is freeze their pay. You know what though? CST promotions are very low this year due to being close to PML. So obviously there's not this mass exodus of people to ATIS or civvie street. I never did disagree with LCIS getting spec, but what I don't get is the bad vibes being pushed out towards all the other Sigs trades re: specpay. Do you guys feel like you won't be the cool kids on the block if we all got it? Why don't you focus on your own trade, and simply happy when the wronging MES has done to your pay scale gets fixed?

I'd go so far as your attitude here LCIS227 is the issue with the C&E Branch as a whole. We're all on the same team, and trying to throw blades at each other makes us look like a joke. The Branch is a mess because no one treats it as a Branch. Its a collection of trades trying to get themselves things to spite everyone else. I've never had spec pay, and by the time there's a decision I'll be sufficiently along in rank that an extra hundred bucks a month won't matter. Quite frankly I'd rather LDA not get messed with.

You keep on your high-horse, however. It won't do you any good in the future, when you have to leave your shop and actually work with other trades. Or, heaven forbid, do an ACISS(Core) job that seems so far beneath you because MES thinks you can pull someone from a line crew/help desk/TM shop and they're instantly a competent Rad Op.  :facepalm:

 

[Swingline1984]

LST, not so much, sorry, but when they turned down or found that it wasnt feasible to train them to program the phone switch, routers, switches (this came from a linemans mouth at the school) kind of threw that option out of there. Civi side, someone pulling comm cable, is maybe making 35-40k a year.

Does it hurt?  I mean seriously, having your head that far up your ass has got to be painful.

 

[Brasidas]

Back up the hate train here, buddy. I think LCIS (now CST) got a giant shaft on this deal, especially since I've heard a rumour the pay review came back as them getting spec returned and DSigs delaying it for a "better" solution. The perfect way to empty out a trade is freeze their pay. You know what though? CST promotions are very low this year due to being close to PML. So obviously there's not this mass exodus of people to ATIS or civvie street. I never did disagree with LCIS getting spec, but what I don't get is the bad vibes being pushed out towards all the other Sigs trades re: specpay. Do you guys feel like you won't be the cool kids on the block if we all got it? Why don't you focus on your own trade, and simply happy when the wronging MES has done to your pay scale gets fixed?

I'm not agreeing with LCIS227's post here, but I'm curious about how the current situation has CST's at PML. Anecdotal LCIS acquaintances releasing aside, I don't have data, but I'd like to know who they're counting. DP1.1 grads?

I'd go so far as your attitude here LCIS227 is the issue with the C&E Branch as a whole. We're all on the same team, and trying to throw blades at each other makes us look like a joke. The Branch is a mess because no one treats it as a Branch. Its a collection of trades trying to get themselves things to spite everyone else. I've never had spec pay, and by the time there's a decision I'll be sufficiently along in rank that an extra hundred bucks a month won't matter. Quite frankly I'd rather LDA not get messed with.

I think there's more institutionally wrong with the branch than that, and that there's plenty of problems within the old sig op trade, particularly with the blade throwing. There's always been a reason for it being an "in demand" trade, and that's not attrition due to incredible job opportunities outside of the military.

You keep on your high-horse, however. It won't do you any good in the future, when you have to leave your shop and actually work with other trades. Or, heaven forbid, do an ACISS(Core) job that seems so far beneath you because MES thinks you can pull someone from a line crew/help desk/TM shop and they're instantly a competent Rad Op.  :facepalm:

I've had great experiences working with ATIS and LCIS techs. One of the dumbest, though, was when one got sent on a two-day tasking, got stranded for a month, and effectively became a QL2 det member of mine for the duration. I taught him VP and had him acting as a relief operator. I'm not putting our trade down at all when I say that I think that it was a waste of the guy's time, and a waste of his unit's resources. He handled a no-duff 9-liner just fine, but so would a switched-on supply tech or clerk if I was training them as long as I did with him.

You take a guy, put him through POET lite, OJT, and other tech training courses, and you have an effective technician. Why the heck would you train him to be a sig op det commander? Familiarization with the end user's needs, sure, but disrupting the technician training track by a year+ of sig op 3's and bouncing around as a det member does not make sense to me, nor does sending him on a sig op 5's. If its what I wanted to do, I wouldn't accept anything but ATIS.

Specialization makes sense, and drinking the MES koolaid and a two years' forgotten QL5 course don't mean that a lineman in a permanent lineman position is going to be an effective sig op det commander for an exercise when he gets CFTPO'd out of the blue.

The branch is a mess because the branch and particularly our trade has been a mess, and MES and spec pay are just symptoms that exacerbate the problem.

 

[PuckChaser]

I'm not agreeing with LCIS227's post here, but I'm curious about how the current situation has CST's at PML. Anecdotal LCIS acquaintances releasing aside, I don't have data, but I'd like to know who they're counting. DP1.1 grads?

Unfortunately they count everyone in the training system, DP1 or just on their BMQ, or so I've heard. It artificially inflates it, but post-Afghanistan I think we're finally catching up.

The branch is a mess because the branch and particularly our trade has been a mess, and MES and spec pay are just symptoms that exacerbate the problem.

I absolutely agree here. There's not one issue that's destroying the branch. There's a deep rooted disease somewhere we have to find, instead of treating symptoms all the time.

 

[upandatom]

Does it hurt?  I mean seriously, having your head that far up your *** has got to be painful.

Not really, because its not up there. Thats the truth. I know people that do that Job Civi Side. same qualifications. I know some good and smart lineman. Pretty switched on, but they agree their job does not deserve spec pay.

You take a guy, put him through POET lite, OJT, and other tech training courses, and you have an effective technician. Why the heck would you train him to be a sig op det commander? Familiarization with the end user's needs, sure, but disrupting the technician training track by a year+ of sig op 3's and bouncing around as a det member does not make sense to me, nor does sending him on a sig op 5's. If its what I wanted to do, I wouldn't accept anything but ATIS.

Specialization makes sense, and drinking the MES koolaid and a two years' forgotten QL5 course don't mean that a lineman in a permanent lineman position is going to be an effective sig op det commander for an exercise when he gets CFTPO'd out of the blue.

The branch is a mess because the branch and particularly our trade has been a mess, and MES and spec pay are just symptoms that exacerbate the problem.

Agreed, from what I have seen thus far, the ability/skills/knowledge of those techs has also dropped.

As for the CST at PML? I also think that because a huge amount of positions were removed from the CST pool, and placed into the IST. As well as ATIS (having a hay day with all the new gucci positions) Which makes sense, as well with counting the people that are already slated in the training system to go to CST.

I dont see how that is possible though, due to the member was supposed to show the drive, initiative, skills and potential to become a CST/LST/IST while cycling through on the OJT bicycle and on the 1.0 course itself. (of course with input from "where we need you, where you wanna go, where your CoC thinks you should be")

As for the spec pay, with the cutbacks announced the other day, I think those are fast becoming a pipe dream.

 

[Swingline1984]

Not really, because its not up there. Thats the truth. I know people that do that Job Civi Side. same qualifications. I know some good and smart lineman. Pretty switched on, but they agree their job does not deserve spec pay.

Really?  You "know SOME good and smart Linemen"; which means what?  Are the rest morons?  Thank-you for your informed opinion.  I know guys who went to Fort Mac "just pulling cable" for 160K;  I myself got offered a job for 60K 2 weeks ago as an installation foreman at a small tech company in TO; a public service / SSC job ranges from 50 - 70K; a tower painting job for an independent contractor can net you 5 - 10K per structure.  I know several who have gone to the US or overseas for far more.  You forget or are perhaps ignorant of the fact that we bring far more to the table than Joe "I just pull cable with my grade 3 education" labourer.  But please continue with your vague and perceived notions of what we do.

 

[PuckChaser]

As for the CST at PML? I also think that because a huge amount of positions were removed from the CST pool, and placed into the IST.

SigOp and LCIS had the same thing happen. They artificially brought the PML numbers up by shifting positions to CST and IST. Now ACISS is yellow, not red so they can pretend nothing is wrong again with retention and recruitment.

 

[upandatom]

SigOp and LCIS had the same thing happen. They artificially brought the PML numbers up by shifting positions to CST and IST. Now ACISS is yellow, not red so they can pretend nothing is wrong again with retention and recruitment.

I Was told it was Red in the fall, and now Yellow as of last week. Red was to try to deter people from the AVOT option. With it being yellow now, Gates have opened.

ATIS is green, so going from a yellow to Green is a tough go. Have to score high during the process.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Just an FYI, the gates are always "open" for VOT out, just the percentage of the TES allowed out changes; 0.5% for red, 1% for amber, 2% for green.

Not sure what the OFP for ACISS is, but if they've lowered it, suddenly a bunch of folks who weren't part of the TES are and "ta-da" you look healthier.  Our trade changed the OFP a few years back from MOAT/OTU to QL5, which changed the TES a lot quicker.

Cheers

 

[c_canuk]

Not really, because its not up there. Thats the truth. I know people that do that Job Civi Side. same qualifications. I know some good and smart lineman. Pretty switched on, but they agree their job does not deserve spec pay.

As much as I think 1984 is a ignorant blowhard, he's right.

Linemen civy side make what a sgt makes starting, and that's before the vast amounts of overtime and on call bonuses they can get.

Spec pay's only purpose is to stop the CAF from bleeding troops to identical trades civy side due to vastly higher pay. That is the only consideration (on paper) for spec pay. How specialized you feel your trade is not. Training and skill set is not a consideration, only what the civy job market will pay for the worker.

Based on that, the line trade had as good or even a better claim to spec pay than LCIS did.

 

[Old EO Tech]

As much as I think 1984 is a ignorant blowhard, he's right.

Linemen civy side make what a sgt makes starting, and that's before the vast amounts of overtime and on call bonuses they can get.

Spec pay's only purpose is to stop the CAF from bleeding troops to identical trades civy side due to vastly higher pay. That is the only consideration (on paper) for spec pay. How specialized you feel your trade is not. Training and skill set is not a consideration, only what the civy job market will pay for the worker.

Based on that, the line trade had as good or even a better claim to spec pay than LCIS did.

I certainly agree that what is happening in Civy street certainly effects retention.  I disagree with what you have stated about Spec Pay, it is an entirely wrong statement.  Spec Pay is based on a points system, trades get points for every unique skill/competency that it has.  A trade either has enough points to make Spec 1 or not.  Spec 2 has a higher points threshold and on top of that requires an element of danger/risk that you are in charge of entire systems or have high risk jobs.  That is why only a few trades get spec 2, Mar Eng Art, Flight engineers are both in-charge of entire systems either a ship or aircraft, SAR Tech's get Spec 2 due to their often dangerous tasks and skill sets they have to maintain to do the job.

So the problem with the Sigs trades changes is you have watered down each trade by spreading the finite skills across more trades, and just creating new trades means they all have to be reassessed.  I have no idea if the CST or IST trades have enough points let alone LST.  But that is what I imagine has been going on since the change, and mix in TB politics and you have the mess that is today.

 

[BorisK]

Sorry for the hijack but could someone please tell me what the acronyms 'CST' & 'PML' stand for? (I'm trying to following along even though I'm just in the application process.)

Thanks

 

[Ludoc]

Sorry for the hijack but could someone please tell me what the acronyms 'CST' & 'PML' stand for? (I'm trying to following along even though I'm just in the application process.)

Thanks

That is complicated, in broad terms:
The ACISS trade is split into 4 sub trades (5 really but CISTM doesn't count and just confuses things):
Core - Radio Operators - Operate the Army's radios, if it is painted green we use it to communicate with someone else.
IST - Computer Geeks - Service all the computer/network infrastructure we have.
LST - Linemen - Lay and service all the cat 5, fiber optic, line used by the Army.
CST - Radio Technicians - Fix all the stuff we core guys break.

None of these divisions are hard and fast, in different units responsibilities bleed from one sub-trade to another. Additionally, each trade is evolving and there are already a bunch of exceptions.

PML is the Prefered Manning Level. How many people the trade would like to, and is authorized to have.

 

[BorisK]

Thank you.

 

[upandatom]

As much as I think 1984 is a ignorant blowhard, he's right.

Linemen civy side make what a sgt makes starting, and that's before the vast amounts of overtime and on call bonuses they can get.

Spec pay's only purpose is to stop the CAF from bleeding troops to identical trades civy side due to vastly higher pay. That is the only consideration (on paper) for spec pay. How specialized you feel your trade is not. Training and skill set is not a consideration, only what the civy job market will pay for the worker.

Based on that, the line trade had as good or even a better claim to spec pay than LCIS did.

I understand what you are saying, but is that a Hydro Ontario, Hydro Quebec or Direct Energy Lineman you are talking about? then Yes they make a SH#t tonne more. Ill fully agree there. I know some of them even pull 80k or more a year add in bonus and OT.

I am sorry but if you are talking about pulling and terminating Fiber, Copper, any number of pairing in bundles, in Manholes, confined spaces, business, commercial, residential, etc. Pole Standing, trench digging for cablage, installing tray, cable racks, cable management, records management, terminating BICS panels, then you are wrong, I know people and have done this job (WITH the qualifications), For a very reputable company,that has government contracts. ( a good year, with working 5 days a week, inclduing travel time and a fair amount of OT looking at max 40-45k a year gross) Maybe for the planners and "management" they would get paid as much as a Cpl-Sgt Lineman Serving. I joined because the pay was not enough civi side,

Working with Bell etc is a different story, their job is streamlined and does not get the broad training the military does. Their termination guys are just that, they know how to pull, they know how to plan, but they do just what is in their scope.

 

[Swingline1984]

I understand what you are saying, but...

Time in the military gives a guy a more global perspective and the flexibility to move beyond Ontario and Quebec although you don't need an electrical background to do high angle construction.  But then again what do I know...I'm just an ignorant blowhard (have you been talking to my wife?) trying to bring some context  to a thread that has turned into a giant "poor me".  Although I must admit my last point was an attempt to market the LST as something more than a laborer.  I apologize if it came off a little harsh as I've been involved in ACISS quite a bit lately and the constant finger pointing, crocodile tears, constant whining and lack of solutions has rubbed me raw.

 

[upandatom]

Time in the military gives a guy a more global perspective and the flexibility to move beyond Ontario and Quebec although you don't need an electrical background to do high angle construction.  But then again what do I know...I'm just an ignorant blowhard (have you been talking to my wife?) trying to bring some context  to a thread that has turned into a giant "poor me".  Although I must admit my last point was an attempt to market the LST as something more than a laborer.  I apologize if it came off a little harsh as I've been involved in ACISS quite a bit lately and the constant finger pointing, crocodile tears, constant whining and lack of solutions has rubbed me raw.

I think everyone is getting a bit Raw, more with the Sigs Branch, and how most would just like to see it go back to the way it was. I am all for someone coming up with a solution, or even answers to questions. Throw in the towel and return to the old system or as close as you can, or get rid of the SUB OCC nightmare. Make CST, LST, IST, and core seperate trades. EME and Air force, and the Navy do a Core training, and they are not all sub occs of eachother. The idea is good, it is. There is just too many grey areas.

You cant even figure out what damn posting you can shoot for nowadays because it all says ACISS, or Communications Systems Technician, Which is funny, As a CST you ask for a Communications Systems Technician position, you get turned down because its in actual fact an IST position.

 

[PuckChaser]

You cant even figure out what damn posting you can shoot for nowadays because it all says ACISS, or Communications Systems Technician, Which is funny, As a CST you ask for a Communications Systems Technician position, you get turned down because its in actual fact an IST position.

Yep. I'm finding out that all the open positions I want to fill with Core guys, are in fact IST because someone threw a set of darts at a board. So an undermanned section gets even further undermanned, because posted out pers can't be replaced with Core. MES is the definition of:  :facepalm: