Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)

[c_canuk]

They can put notes on your file, mine did last year and even wrote them on there while I watched in the interview.

Mine's done that every year too, however, the question I'm posing is when and how much time to they get to devote to each member's file.

I'm assuming very little since if split evenly they each have to look at 1250 files, in under 210 days, while still attending all their meetings and fulfilling all their other requirements and obligations. I also assume the difficulty in this is compounded by the lack of continuity in each sub occs manager.

Things are going to have to be prioritised by CF needs, therefore it is a definite advantage to all parties for the member to have a face to face  for a mutual Q&A, rather than be limited to only the 250 characters afforded on EMMA.

We can't all get a specially scheduled tele/vid conference and they can't spend all their time reading general info memos from the members, and we can't answer questions we don't know are being posed.

 

[Swingline1984]

I had a long winded rant in response to this, but I'll keep it short

You posted a rant about people bitching about not getting the posting they wanted and it's your fault if you didn't communicate a plan to the career manager.

I pointed out that this has absolutely nothing to do with current conversation and is similar to the responses we get from higher when pointing out issues with the trade or requesting clarification: rebukes about demands no one made and instruction to be patient and some unrelated issue will solve itself.

I'm not tracking exactly what words and emotions you put between the lines I wrote, however it was a comment in general as the conv had steered towards careers (as an organization) with MES in the periphery.  And of course it was similar from what you'd get from higher because it makes sense.  I apologize if it doesn't sooth your hurt feelings though.

Here, I'll post it again so you can point out exactly where I say "quit bitching" or where I drag out a long protracted argument about postings other than a small blurb in passing:

These folks are busy.  There are 3 of them for approx 4K pers.  The forcasts have been terrible in the last 2 years (read 0 promos) only to have 6 or more CWOs release (SURPRISE!!) and a mad scramble to find enough people to fill holes (and MES has been like a hole making machine) and everybody has an excuse as to why they can't move.  Filling holes.  At the end of the day that is all they do (it should be thier motto), so don't take it personally if not everyone of your postings can be Club Med.

At the end of the day, start watching your EMAA the first week of Dec (around the time the General signs off the merit list) and plan accordingly.  If something is bugging you and you want to discuss your career then set up an appointment; face to face, VTC, telephone or frigging snail mail.  If you don't have a plan, or you have not bothered to articulate that plan to the Career Managers do not expect them to know what you want or need (other than as MJP said; "through your CoC").

I don't exactly know what in the above statement needs defending but if you need to take this opportunity to feel better by tilting at windmills, go nuts.  I would ask that you take a couple of breathes and read it again in your calm and measured voice and assume for a moment that I am only offering advice and not talking down to you.

I would like to pose a question to you, however:

You stress patience. I will concede that patience can be a virtue, however...

Do you have a time frame in mind for which it is acceptable to be unimpressed with what the patience has bought us, or is patience a Zen state that is open ended?

That really all depends on what it is that has put a bee in your bonnet.  You can engage them all year long so specific issues that they cannot forecast should be addressed prior to the board and the posting plot (so if something is REALLY bothering you than you may already be too late although they have been known to be flexible).

I'll give you a quick rundown of how this works so you can see why they don't have much time and why I keep harping on continued engagement (some people think it is best to hide from the CM and that is just not true).

Our boards are (unfortunately) a little late in the year as they occur the last week of Oct and first week of Nov.  The forecasts for the last few years have been very low so it is hard for them to develop an accurate forward looking assessment to put in a briefing.

They can't release the results of the boards until they are official (signed off after a review) which usually occurs end Nov/first week of Dec when people will start to see their EMAA populated.

Then it's silly week and Christmas holidays and no one is engaging them during that period and they are more than likely on a beach somewhere.

Then it's Jan and they start to engage personnel (bare in mind the posting plot is already done at this point and any changes you try to inject cause significant pain).

Messages have to be out by mid April to ensure they meet the 90 day deadline so their isn't much time to do thier engagements, fix the weird Harolds and fill all the holes that suddenly appear due to unforcasted retirements (people tend to keep this close to thier chests [retirement] until they see how things pan out).

So if you wait until Jan/Feb to engage then you are are asking to change a plan that is pretty much a done deal.

If you don't know what is happening to you because you never engaged than you need to be "patient" and wait for the boards to be signed off.  So short answer long....December is the cut off in that regard.

As for MES it was forced upon us by the system (whether that be the Branch or higher I cannot say) and we were not ready for it.  The training system was not ready to train these new animals and the line units were not ready to house or feed them.  Is that a problem?  Hell yes it is and I'm not a fan of MES just read back in this thread and you will see that.  It will take years to untangle this mess we are in, but I have faith that eventually the smart folks coming up beneath the dinosaurs that imposed it will find the solution if only the training bill gets sorted.

If these explanations are not good enough for you than I don't know what else to say and I'd preface any follow on conversation with the fact that you seem to be angry which has destroyed your ability to be pragmatic.

 

[Swingline1984]

...my timelines for CM engagement may be little off and they may start speaking with folks earlier than Jan, however you get the gist.

 

[c_canuk]

*Sigh*

The reason I got a bit of a Bee in my bonnet is because in general 41 pages of text was about how the trade is in a huge mess while it's finding it's new normal, that is causing those of us in the lower ranks concern since we don't know what to plan for, what's expected of us, where the trade is headed, and what this is going to do to our careers while noting that some sub occs have been jammed up for years now.

None of that is within the AOR of the career managers.

Then you post your comment which contains these sentences:

These folks are busy.  There are 3 of them for approx 4K pers.

don't take it personally if not everyone of your postings can be Club Med.

If you don't have a plan, or you have not bothered to articulate that plan to the Career Managers do not expect them to know what you want or need (other than as MJP said; "through your CoC").

So I read it as a rebuke to us for complaining about career manager stuff, when we're talking about something completely different.

I can't understand why you'd bring this up in this conversation, of course it's good advice, but it doesn't apply to anything we've been discussing.

Then you go on again at length about how to engage the CM to fix personal issues, ignoring that the discussion at hand is trade related issues that cannot be solved via CM.

As for MES it was forced upon us by the system (whether that be the Branch or higher I cannot say) and we were not ready for it.  The training system was not ready to train these new animals and the line units were not ready to house or feed them.  Is that a problem?  Hell yes it is and I'm not a fan of MES just read back in this thread and you will see that.  It will take years to untangle this mess we are in, but I have faith that eventually the smart folks coming up beneath the dinosaurs that imposed it will find the solution if only the training bill gets sorted.

If these explanations are not good enough for you than I don't know what else to say and I'd preface any follow on conversation with the fact that you seem to be angry which has destroyed your ability to be pragmatic.

I am also dissatisfied with the mess that is MES, I'm frustrated that general information and directives that should have been issued day one, over 3 years later are still absent. Moral is in the shitter trade wide because of this crap, and the only concrete thing we get back is "we're working on it, things are gonna get better real soon, be patient" year after year.

I'm concerned that pers who got in at the start of MES are coming up on the end of their VIE, that these basic issues are not solved is big problem. I feel that If we intend to maintain the health of the trade through the transition we have to ensure the people entering the bottom have confidence in the trade to stay in for the long haul. Vague promises and mis information are not going to do that.

 

[Swingline1984]

*Sigh*

I echo that; *sigh*.  We are obviously in different places on this.  We can obviously both agree that MES is a mess, but I'm past it and in the "making it work" phase.  You can take my advice or leave it, doesn't bother me one bit.  One thing for certain is that I've seen a lot of change in my career and the only thing you can be positive of is that more will come.  You can either accept it and try to make the best out of a difficult situation or you can point fingers and scream in righteous indignation.  The CAF is a big faceless machine and it will grind you up and spit you out with the best of them and you may never get the answers you seek.

Time for some PD.  Have you heard of an OODA loop?  It is a concept developed by Col John Boyd of the USAF.  It is a simple way to graph out the decision making process and stands for Observe, Orient, Decide, Act.  We are past the Observe, Orient, and Decide phases of MES and are in Act.  All the chances we ever had to change this are past and now that the decision has been made it is our job as NCO's to all start pulling in the same direction, to make the impossible possible.  If you want to change policy become an officer, until then you get what you pay for and no amount of complaining will solve the problem.

I'm looking forward to whatever nefarious spin you can add to what I've just said.  It's becoming quite entertaining.

 

[Old and Tired]

While I still think that this whole ACISS amalgamation is an incredibly stupid and badly implemented plan, we should remember one important thing that I have recently learned in a conversation with several current and former serving personal from Fort Ridiculous on the Rideau. This plan was forced on the Signals world from OUTSIDE the branch, because we, all ranks and occupations, IN the branch umm'd and haw'd for so long about moderising and changing the way we do things that a decision has to be made one way or the other. Because we were navel gazing for so long over things like "Spec" pay and any number of other B***S*** details, some one else forced reform upon us.

Now it is our job to sort things out now that we have our marching orders. Whine and Complain all you want, shout "Well we're different and deserve X, Y or Z', the simple fact of the matter is we will do our jobs to the best of our ability, learn from our mistakes and move on.

 

[c_canuk]

I echo that; *sigh*.  We are obviously in different places on this.  We can obviously both agree that MES is a mess, but I'm past it and in the "making it work" phase.  You can take my advice or leave it, doesn't bother me one bit.  One thing for certain is that I've seen a lot of change in my career and the only thing you can be positive of is that more will come.  You can either accept it and try to make the best out of a difficult situation or you can point fingers and scream in righteous indignation.  The CAF is a big faceless machine and it will grind you up and spit you out with the best of them and you may never get the answers you seek.

Time for some PD.  Have you heard of an OODA loop?  It is a concept developed by Col John Boyd of the USAF.  It is a simple way to graph out the decision making process and stands for Observe, Orient, Decide, Act.  We are past the Observe, Orient, and Decide phases of MES and are in Act.  All the chances we ever had to change this are past and now that the decision has been made it is our job as NCO's to all start pulling in the same direction, to make the impossible possible.  If you want to change policy become an officer, until then you get what you pay for and no amount of complaining will solve the problem.

I'm looking forward to whatever nefarious spin you can add to what I've just said.  It's becoming quite entertaining.

I have no issue with the content of your post, I have issue that it doesn't apply to the conversation. There's nothing wrong with the advice you gave, in fact much of it is excellent advice. I just don't understand how you think the problems being discussed can be solved via CM who has no control over the issues being discussed.

 

[Swingline1984]

I have no issue with the content of your post, I have issue that it doesn't apply to the conversation. There's nothing wrong with the advice you gave, in fact much of it is excellent advice. I just don't understand how you think the problems being discussed can be solved via CM who has no control over the issues being discussed.

Jesus Mary and Joseph Son!  You brought it up, others commented, I provided context.  That's it.  Peace brother...I'm out.

 

[upandatom]

How many staff cars to bring every Sigs guy that wants an interview to Ottawa from Kingston, Pet and Montreal? I think VTC is a lot cheaper than that ball of wax. Not to mention meal claims...

Last time I checked, Most Bases have Shacks, and Messes, and buses. Agreed VTC would be cheaper, I see money literally wasted on a day to day basis on things we dont use or need, why not put it to a decent use instead of the "its march 31st SPEND ALL THE MONEYZ"

The options and possibilities are there, it just means a little bit of organization. You could even turn it into a Signals PD, Info Sessions etc. Briefs on what is new and upcomming, Just like Comm Player (without having the purpose of drinking our faces off and playing some puck)

 

[Swingline1984]

Last time I checked, Most Bases have Shacks, and Messes, and buses. Agreed VTC would be cheaper, I see money literally wasted on a day to day basis on things we dont use or need, why not put it to a decent use instead of the "its march 31st SPEND ALL THE MONEYZ"

That  pretty much ended with the dawn of proper quarterly business planning (BP).  The end year buys are usually things on the wish list that were chopped from the BP at the beginning of the year as "Mission Enhancing" vice "Mission Critical".  These buys come online because the procurement process is so bloody slow that most RC Managers have to deal with a host of "Off Ramps" (planned purchases that don't go off) and then either have to re-adjust and procure off their wish list or return money to the center.

The options and possibilities are there, it just means a little bit of organization. You could even turn it into a Signals PD, Info Sessions etc. Briefs on what is new and upcomming, Just like Comm Player (without having the purpose of drinking our faces off and playing some puck)

OR;  they filter the forecast and briefing down through the CoC who brief it to their pers who in turn push their broader scope questions back at the CoC for answers and leave the individual questions for the face to face with the CM.  What exactly is it that everyone is burning up to ask about?  Is it MES?  The answer to that is SNAFU and political blah, blah, blah; and if it's Spec pay then look up about 20 posts to see the never changing status.

 

[c_canuk]

Jesus Mary and Joseph Son!  You brought it up, others commented, I provided context.  That's it.  Peace brother...I'm out.

So you're saying :

your 3 paragraphs centred around communicating your personal career plan to the CM

was in response to:

my comment that they cancelled a free trip out, rather than rescheduled, and pointed out that I think it's not a lack of time/scheduling issue since VTC coord for this many people will take a lot more time than actually coming out, never mind if there are technical issues, after complaining about how IST has been pushed into limbo and a lot of the gold we were sold about it has evaporated.

and you don't understand why I think the two things are unrelated and think I'm the one with comprehension problems?  :facepalm:

 

[Swingline1984]

So you're saying :

your 3 paragraphs centred around communicating your personal career plan to the CM

was in response to:

my comment that they cancelled a free trip out, rather than rescheduled, and pointed out that I think it's not a lack of time/scheduling issue since VTC coord for this many people will take a lot more time than actually coming out, never mind if there are technical issues, after complaining about how IST has been pushed into limbo and a lot of the gold we were sold about it has evaporated.

and you don't understand why I think the two things are unrelated and think I'm the one with comprehension problems?  :facepalm:

I really should know better than to respond and continue to derail this any further with your constant need to dwell on the trivial, however you need to do me a favor and go look up what the word "context" means and then go back and reread the last bit of the thread and realize you were not the only person speaking about the CMs and then maybe, just maybe you might understand where I'm coming from.  Probably too much to hope as you apparently suffer from a debilitating mental blockage and an insufferable need to have the last word.  Well try as you might you won't get any satisfaction from me as this exercise in futility is finally over and you're going straight to ignore (la, la, la...I can't hear you).  Cheers.

 

[PuckChaser]

Last time I checked, Most Bases have Shacks, and Messes, and buses. Agreed VTC would be cheaper, I see money literally wasted on a day to day basis on things we dont use or need, why not put it to a decent use instead of the "its march 31st SPEND ALL THE MONEYZ"

So instead of flying 3 people around, we fly around the whole Signals Corps? If we're going to move people from base to base, even if its to every base, its cheaper than IBB/Shacks/Mess food for 3800 people.

 

[c_canuk]

So instead of flying 3 people around, we fly around the whole Signals Corps? If we're going to move people from base to base, even if its to every base, its cheaper than IBB/Shacks/Mess food for 3800 people.

I think he meant buses... as in send the CMs to a reduced set of locations and bus everyone within a reasonable distance away in for the general brief and their interview, but I don't see setting things up like that will help much anyway.

I think the best suggestion so far was to just get the local CoCs to do the general brief and interviews simultaneously across the country, then leave VTCs for things only the CM can address.

I know in my neck of the woods there are already reps that are tasked to direct the flow to the CM already so it seems to be a logical progression to me.

 

[c_canuk]

I really should know better than to respond and continue to derail this any further with your constant need to dwell on the trivial, however you need to do me a favor and go look up what the word "context" means and then go back and reread the last bit of the thread and realize you were not the only person speaking about the CMs and then maybe, just maybe you might understand where I'm coming from.  Probably too much to hope as you apparently suffer from a debilitating mental blockage and an insufferable need to have the last word.  Well try as you might you won't get any satisfaction from me as this exercise in futility is finally over and you're going straight to ignore (la, la, la...I can't hear you).  Cheers.

I didn't want to give him any satisfaction by responding, but since I'm on ignore and he won't see it regardless

all I heard was "I just realized I was caught out posting a general rant, but don't want to admit it. so now I'll ignore everything from you from the future rather than illustrate what I'm talking about after liberally questioning the content of your character"

Am I fucked here? I didn't see any posts that would have had anything to do with what he posted, can someone show me the light?

I have a very large distrust of absolutes, there is always some doubt so I will not say I know I'm right, because there is a very real possibility I am ****ed here. I just want to know what I'm missing."

I imaging everyone else is just as sick as I am of this, so I'll just shut up about it.

 

[upandatom]

I think he meant buses... as in send the CMs to a reduced set of locations and bus everyone within a reasonable distance away in for the general brief and their interview, but I don't see setting things up like that will help much anyway.

I think the best suggestion so far was to just get the local CoCs to do the general brief and interviews simultaneously across the country, then leave VTCs for things only the CM can address.

I know in my neck of the woods there are already reps that are tasked to direct the flow to the CM already so it seems to be a logical progression to me.

Thats understandable, that I can see and deal with. Yet, some places, that sig or sigs will get lost and forgotten about. There will have to be more definitive answers and people held accountable for not relaying information. This will become a "Game of Thrones", (even more so then it is) and the whole "puppet master" routine better get dropped.

Even though we got off topic, Here we are, over 3 years after I was told to pick a sub occ. Still have not had a definitive reply as to what is going on (spec Pay, job requirements, courses, difference between IST and CST, FYI, the only thing I have noticed is that IST refuse to touch green shit) . It is getting a bit frustrating regardless, and I legitimately hope for the Sake of the Sigs World, this gets sorted out and Fast, I have done nothing but see Good Signals Community Members say F@#$ this shit, Im out, many have already, and others currently are on their way out.

Many of you can, will and have said Spec Pay is Mute and shouldnt matter, But it Does.

for example;
ATIS Tech-Pretty damn close to the same trade as LCIS, Completes POET, does more with Radar, Gets Spec Pay
EO Tech- Does POET, (no AM or FM), spends a multitude of months in the EME school Learning Technical repairs and Fault Finding of equipment-Gets Spec Pay
AVS Tech-Completes POET, spends forever at CFSATE learning to fix equipment on Planes-Gets Spec Pay


Even under this new system, CST still does a Mini POET, I have gone through my guys I have put through books, is pretty much the same course.

Still expected to have the same knowledge, skillset, experience and ability. I do not see a difference with exception of an acronym and a number.

So instead now you have members doing the exact same job for less pay, or no pay increases along with increased responsibility. Expect frustration, anger and resentment.

That is why you will see the frustrated technicians, and good ones at that walk out the door to equivalent or better paying Civilian Jobs.

 

[corp47]

When I did my application I put reserves, now I want to do it full time. Is there anyway when I get contacted be able to change from Reserves to Full-time?

I am still waiting for first contact.

When or if I do get accepted, would their be a big difference in courses? Some people tell me reserves finish their ACISS courses before full-time.

 

[PuckChaser]

When or if I do get accepted, would their be a big difference in courses? Some people tell me reserves finish their ACISS courses before full-time.

Reserve ACISS courses are no longer the exact same course as the RegF ones AFAIK.

If you want to go the RegF route, call the recruiting center and change your application. The PRes will have limited spots, and will happily move your file so you can go full-time so they can recruit someone else.

 

[ringo598]

So its been a couple of months since the last post, anyone heard anything?  Any interesting rumours?

 

[c_canuk]

So its been a couple of months since the last post, anyone heard anything?  Any interesting rumours?