Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)

[PiperDown]

POET was great when radios and equipment was built with tubes, but you don't need 15 months of electronics training to change a card in a radio. The 052s want it as well. Won't be special anymore if everyone gets spec 1, will you?

I cannot tell you how many times in my career I have been handed a piece of kit to figure out/administer/troubleshoot/fix.  The skills and troubleshooting methodology learned in POET are called upon CONSTANTLY. 

I have to tell you, I also HATE the "change cards in a radio" definition of LCIS techs.  Well, I guess Operators don't deserve Spec Pay for making coffee in a CP either.

I realize that the spec pay issue is the hottest topic in the MES and it gets us all a little hot under the collar. But at the end of the day its not anyone in the branches decision.

 

[PuckChaser]

I'm not going to get into a huge pissing match over who has the harder job. We all have specialities, but POET isn't an absolute must. I cannot count how many times I've been handed a piece of kit that's either mine or someone elses, and told to fix it. I didn't need POET to figure it out, just a little common sense and the ability to logically look at a problem. POET would have let me use some neat machines to figure it out, but that takes too much time, things need to be fixed yesterday.

Tango: Its a shame you've drawn all the jaded, lazy operators to work with over your career. I can assure you they're not all like that, at least not the ones I supervise. I do think its funny you say that we're all equals, yet you state that its just the Operators causing the problem. Issues normally have two sides, I bet there's another you're not seeing.

Just to note, I make a damn good cup of coffee, that maybe some take a little for granted in the field. However, if I wanted to be a coffee specialist, I'd work at Starbucks. There's far more to my job than that, as there is to technicians just fixing the magic green boxes that talk.

 

[chrisf]

I'm not going to get into a huge pissing match over who has the harder job. We all have specialities, but POET isn't an absolute must. I cannot count how many times I've been handed a piece of kit that's either mine or someone elses, and told to fix it. I didn't need POET to figure it out, just a little common sense and the ability to logically look at a problem. POET would have let me use some neat machines to figure it out, but that takes too much time, things need to be fixed yesterday.

So are you saying because you occasionally fix somthing minor that justifies spec pay? Or are you saying you think that's what LCIS techs do? Because either way, I hate to be the one to point it out, but it sounds a lot like infanteers who claim they're just as good or better than sig ops after they do an ATCIS course, or they know everything a sup tech knows and more after they do a combat storesman course.

Speaking as somone who's trained as an operator via the CF, and has electrical/electronics training civi side, if it's a problem you need "neat machines" for, it's not going to be fixed yesterday, no matter what you do, that's why most field repairs of kit are limited to "replace and remove for second line repair".

A tinfoil, bubble gum, and duct-tape fix is not full repair.

 

[PuckChaser]

I was using it as a reference that POET isn't the end all and be all of how to troubleshoot.

 

[chrisf]

In a couple of hours, I can take anyone and teach them enough theory and give them enough hands on training to troubleshoot, and make quick dirty field repairs.

There's a huge leap from field expedient repairs to what LCIS techs do.

Actually, the fact that sig ops aren't trained/allowed to do minor field repairs such as soldering is a mistake on the part of the army.

 

[REDinstaller]

Tango: Its a shame you've drawn all the jaded, lazy operators to work with over your career. I can assure you they're not all like that, at least not the ones I supervise. I do think its funny you say that we're all equals, yet you state that its just the Operators causing the problem. Issues normally have two sides, I bet there's another you're not seeing.

There's far more to my job than that, as there is to technicians just fixing the magic green boxes that talk.

I'm sure that Beadwindow 7 would take exception to your comment. I have worked with some great operators over my many years. As for the equality, spend a bit more time in our branch and open your eyes. I have been a tech for 18 yrs was an Op for 3. So I have seen first hand both sides of the fence. The big issue right now is that my pay is still the same, the issue for the Ops is that the empty promise with money attached to it can't be deposited in the bank. And remember not all of the boxes you use are green, but they are supported by a tech, and the infrastructure that connects them is installed by a linemen or a tech.

 

[Jammer]

I'll weigh in here with the latest statement from the ivory tower that is CFSCE HQ.

CST Spec Pay no change

LST Spec Pay...being fought for...it could take up to 12 months to get a decision

IST Spec Pay....still being defined...24-36 months...not looking likely

ACCIS Core Spec Pay... no chance.

Keep in mind folks the ARMY/DND does not abitrarily dole our spec pay on a whim.

It is the Treasury Board that gets the FINAL say based on justification from DND at all levels IAW what a comparitive job either performed within the public service or the private sector are compensated for.

You, me, or anyone else here cannot and won't be able to influence that process in the slightest. In short, if you believe you or your trade deserve Spec Pay, staff it up thru the CoC with all your relavent documents, crse reports, crayon drawings or whatever in care of DSigs or the CFCCO and best of luck to you.

Don't complain too much though, I think that the 74 students that started ACCIS DP-1 Core last week who were originally recruited as LMN or LCIS six months ago and now are being told they have to compete for those jobs AFTER they are posted to units that supposedly are going to rotate them through the various shops (yeah, like THATS going to happen), to see who has the aptitude to perform in the trade/sub-occupation on DP1.1 which they had originally selected many months prior 2011 have a legit gripe that trumps anything in this thread.
Just a thought though.

 

[REDinstaller]

And ultimately, those candidates are the first to be disadvantaged by this new strategy. When the time comes for resigning, i am willing to bet that over 50 percent will become civilians again. Just due to the uncertain future they will be experiencing as the first few.

 

[C/S 0]

I was at the same brief as Jammer.

I went and saw the three wisemen yesterday to confirm.  It is their plan that these students be loaded on the DP 1.1 courses IAW what they joined as.  So those that joined as LCIS will be loaded on CST, those that joined as linemen will be loaded on LST and those that are Sig Ops after their DP1 will be posted to their units.  Furthermore for the wantabe CSTs LSTs about 18 of them wont leave CFSCE but be loaded on 1.1 rightway and the others will also be posted but brought back to do their 1.1s.

So any young soldiers on their ACISS course that were in that brief, don't panic.

 

[meni0n]

Recruting offices are still enrolling people as Sig ops, LCIS etc, what will happen with those people given that they are being enrolled in the old trades after Jan 1.

 

[C/S 0]

I must admit that when I heard that we all mite not get spec pay I was a little ticked off.  I thought of maybe submitting a memo to go from ACISS Core to IST.  Then I though about it - how much do I really know about servers, routers,switches, networkgates with the career path I had have.  I know their are Ex Sig Ops that have all those quals and deserve their IST position and spec pay.  I also thought I have at least 7 to 12 years left if I want to go 20 to 25, do I want to be a IST computer guy when I'm more of a operator/field type guy.

So I'm ACISS Core, I'm going to stay the course and hope for the best.  And I hope that everybody eventually gets Spec Pay.

 

[Sigger]

It will be interesting to see what they do to me when I re-enroll.. QL3 SigOp trained.

The recruiters still recruit for SigOp, Lineman or LCIS. I inquired as to why, and they said it is because they have not been given orders to mention ACCIS, just to mention the trades are changing.. Their CoC have not decided on how to go about recruiting for ACCIS yet.

 

[Danke]

Recruting offices are still enrolling people as Sig ops, LCIS etc, what will happen with those people given that they are being enrolled in the old trades after Jan 1.

I asked the recruiter on Tuesday, since he hadn't mentioned it when I first went there. He told me that, depending on the timing, I'd either be put into ACISS directly, or into one of the trades and then into ACISS.

On a related note, handing in my application later today.

 

[Sigger]

I asked the recruiter on Tuesday, since he hadn't mentioned it when I first went there. He told me that, depending on the timing, I'd either be put into ACISS directly, or into one of the trades and then into ACISS.

Interesting.. This is the second inconsistent situation I have heard of with my recruiters in one week.

On a related note, handing in my application later today.

Good

 

[Jammer]

The Branch has done less than a stellar job of getting the word out about ACCIS to the recruiting centers.

 

[PuckChaser]

Their CoC have not decided on how to go about recruiting for ACCIS yet.

They couldn't figure out how to recruit for SigOp in the first place, that's why we're in this mess. If SigOp and LCIS weren't constant Red Trades, we wouldn't have the good idea train running on how to fix it, which created MES.

 

[Occam]

What I would do if I were you?

Tell them you enrolled as an LCIS Tech, and to honour the terms under which you enrolled.  If they can't do that, and it appears that you're going to be employed as a PAT for a ridiculous period of time and not be able to move your family to your current location, they should be offering you ATIS Tech or something like that.  They should never have dicked around people who had no idea what they were getting into.

 

[Old and Tired]

And this is large part of the reason we are where we are in the C & E Branch in general and Army Sigs more specifically.  We treat people like and they are as expendable as D Cell batteries.  From what I gather in the very limited information that I`ve been able to get about the ACISS process, it`s only going to get worse.  No one that I`ve spoken with is willing to talk about the underlying problems we have.

I think we will see a spike in VOT`s and or RV`s as this sorts it`s self out.  They are a large number of people that are in Kingston right now who have been waiting for training in the trade they signed for, and now that trade doesn`t exist anymore.  Some of these people are going to be spending up to a year (if not more) waiting on a course for which they may or may not be what they wanted/signed for.  How much is this going to affect their out look on the CF.

I'm still trying to keep an open mind but it's becoming more difficult.  I'm in St-Jean on ILQ right now and their are a couple of folks from Ottawa in the Sigs world and they haven't got any better an idea of what is going to happen over the medium to long term.

For me it doesn't matter.  I wanted to be TAC RAD guy from day one.  I to old and stupid to move into any of the sub-specialities so I'm Happy that I'm ACISS Core, but for the young troops coming in who thought they would be LCIS or line it's going to be a whole lot different.  I don't know that they are going to stay around that long.

my :2c: from the peanut gallery.

 

[REDinstaller]

I can't agree more. The CMs have even less of a clue about how the fallout is going to affect the trades. I just wanted to keep being a tech without all the BS of being amalgamated. This is my second one now, and the most bitter. Rad Tech to LCIS Tech, now to CST and then CISTM shortly.

 

[Lare]

As one who may be entering as a Sig Op, I haven't really seen a large amount of complaints regarding the Sig's. For a fresh recruit, who is expecting ACISS core, will this new training system have any frustrations attached? From what I'm reading here it seems as though it will remain the same, except that we will be taking a little more varied DP1. Will there be a huge wait on PAT as now 3 trades, previously with their own course, are now bottle-necked into one?

As an aside, I sincerely hope the recruiting centres get some information quick for the LCIS/Linemen. I would hate to think of the guy applying for either of those trades now, without knowing about this site. Same situation as those who applied before all of this amalgamation stuff came to light though I guess.