Army.ca Staff and user conduct

[GAP]

I read most threads. Don't always comment, If I have nothing creative to add, I listen.

I have noticed that when subjects go out of kilter regarding things relevant to Astan, pretty soon one of the guys that is either over there, or just back, pipes in and sets things straight. You can almost see the heads perk up, and the thread subject gets back on focus (mostly).

 

[George Wallace]

niner domestic  

I am going to say a few things in reply to your post, and point out, contrary to what others have already posted, that in many cases we are already doing what you have suggested, but of course differently than what is practiced on other sites.  What the Mods do, is in the background and often unseen by the members of the Forums.  

We do have Mods who are dedicated to certain Forums and that is due to their 'expertise' in those areas.  We have three or four who patrol the Franco Forums.  We have two or three who concentrate on the Cadet Forums.  We also have other SMEs who will deal with the Air Force, the Navy, QM, RMS, etc. and others will leave them alone to use their expertise.  Most, however, are Global.  Not all the Mods are on at regular times, and each has a different style or method of monitoring the site.  Often a Mod is onto a problem before it is posted.  I am sure many of the long time members of the site have memories of such instances where a Post has appeared and when they refreshed their screens, it was gone.

We are not as draconian as to forbid any Mod from posting, as they too are members of the site.  Your example of a Global Mod not being able to post for the month that they rotated through that position, actually is not a deterant for a Mod picking on someone that they don't like.  It just makes it less visible, but the membership will still recognize it.  We do try to monitor our own actions as Mods, so that if we are involved in a discussion, we will ask another Mod to moderate that topic.  It isn't fair for a Mod to argue with someone and then Lock the topic.  Not if we want to look professional.

As for your suggestions on monitoring IPs.  We do.  We have, in the last week, caught several European Spam sites attempting to gain access to this site and banned them before they could finish registering.  We do require a valid email address, although we haven't gone as far as you have suggested, and if we did we would disenfranchise many legitimate members.  We do find it easy to track down Multiple Accounts.  We also have several thousand Serving Members of the CF logging in from the same IP addresses so we have to be very careful in how we deal with blocking addresses.  I am sure many of the long time member will also remember the numerous occurrences where the Mods have picked up on previously Banned members who have recreated themselves with new names, IP addresses, emails and all that, so I think we have fairly a good system in place and working for us.  Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, no one but the Mods see what is going on behind the scenes.

Of course there is always room for improvement and we are always open to suggestions.  

 

[armyvern]

I read most threads. Don't always comment, If I have nothing creative to add, I listen.

I have noticed that when subjects go out of kilter regarding things relevant to Astan, pretty soon one of the guys that is either over there, or just back, pipes in and sets things straight. You can almost see the heads perk up, and the thread subject gets back on focus (mostly).

Good point Gap,

It is also why we mods also rely on those members with the "lane" experience to chime in when required. Doesn't mean a snr member needs to chime in at all, just someone with current lane experience. Much like occured the other night in this thread:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/56830/post-519971.html#msg519971

 

[George Wallace]

pnp

Your little rant could be considered an insult to many.

If I may add to the picture, a few lines from your own profile as posted at this very instance on this site:

MOC:         Infantry in a staff job.
Mil Exp:      Pretty vanilla - no Afghanistan time yet. Waitin' my turn with ears wide open.


So I am left with the question as to what your whole post is about.  

Could your post be one of the causes of this whole Topic.  A disgruntled individual out for one thing, and one thing only; to stir up shyte with the "Staff"?

 

[George Wallace]

Just to add to some of the arguement:

Here is an example of what the Mods put up with several times a day.  Of course they are not all worded the same, but in essance they are the same question.  We all know that this question has been asked many times before and answered.  Here we have a person who has just registered on the site, and posts almost immediately.  (Date Registered:  Today at 18:16:51 )

Hello,

I was wondering if any of you guys know if it is possible to do the BMQ, SQ, and DP2 during summertime? I have the impression it is possible but it seems most people just go for the first two or just the BMQ per year.

Thank you!

People may wonder why our first response is to give out the multiple coloured list, but you can only answer a question so many times before you just cut and paste the instructions that will get the person the answers:


Welcome to Army.ca. Here are some reading references that are core to how Army.ca operates. I strongly recommend you take a moment to read through these to give you a better sense for the environment here. It will help you avoid the common pitfalls which can result in miscommunication and confusion. For those that choose not to read, their actions often lead to warnings being issued or even permanent bans.

Army.ca Conduct Guidelines: MUST READ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937.0.html

MSN and ICQ "short hand" -  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33247.0.html

Regarding the use of "MSN speak" versus the employment of prose which is correct in grammar, spelling and punctuation, please see: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/34015/post-260446.html#msg260446

Tone and Content on Army.ca: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/51970.0.html

FRIENDLY ADVICE TO NEW MEMBERS - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937/post-259412.html#msg259412

Recruiting FAQ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21101.0.html

Army.ca Wiki Recruiting FAQ - http://army.ca/wiki/index.php/Frequently_Asked_Questions

• Canadian Forces Aptitude Test - http://army.ca/forums/threads/21101/post-103977.html#msg103977
• Fitness requirements at enrolment, see page 12 of this brochure: http://64.254.158.112/pdf/physical_fitness_en.pdf

Infantry Specific FAQ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21131.0.html

Search page - http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?action=search;advanced

Google search of Army.ca - http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=+site%3Aarmy.ca+%22search+term%22&btnG=Search&meta= (follow the link then replace "search term" with what you are looking for)

Army.ca wiki pages - http://army.ca/wiki/index.php/Main_Page


To summarize. Welcome to Army.ca, start reading.


Will they follow the hint with a little nudge.......or not?  Only time will tell. 

 

[Roy Harding]

PNP;

I AM an Afghanistan Vet (albeit I was a REMF) - (Roto 0, 2002).

I've never felt insulted here; as others have asked in previous posts - can you provide links to examples of what you stated??


Roy Harding

 

[Neill McKay]

The reason why we have 'global' moderators only is that because most moderators have a full time job or otherwise busy and cannot devote much time to moderating all the time. So, really, if there is a trouble, first mod on scene deals with it.
It gets to the point that some mods are way more active than others that sometimes no other mods need to be active.

With the system we have (the main one being 'Report to Mod' button to get a mod's attention), I believe the system we have works well, and no need to tinker

In the site where I'm a moderator the staff are responsible for individual forms for the most part (one or two forums have two moderators each).  When a post in my form is reported I get an e-mail, and a post is generated in one of the staff forums showing the reported post and the comments provided by the user who reported it (so that all of the moderators can see who's making trouble throughout the site).

I'm curious as to what happens here, where the staff are all at-large and not assigned to individual forums -- who gets the call when a user pushes the button?

 

[George Wallace]

I'm curious as to what happens here, where the staff are all at-large and not assigned to individual forums -- who gets the call when a user pushes the button?

Might I refer you to Reply #21

 

[armyvern]

We get an e-mail notification on the reported post and the comments that the reporter has made. The reported post is then reviewed to determine if any action is required or warranted.

If so, the reported post is actioned accordingly. Sounds much like the system which is on the site where you moderate.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

We also usually allow the Mod that is SME in that area to deal with it.

 

[Gunner98]

probum non poenitet... But as a point of note with your post regarding Afghan Vets not being here, I can assure you that the IP tracking in the program reveals that there is indeed a great many pers here who are posting from theatre. Veronica

To this I would add:
Many Vets have had a change in priorities since deploying and returning from A'stan.  Family time, socializing and catching up on personal issues/hobbies has taken more prominence in their lives than sitting at their computer discussing the mundane.  They have been through a life-altering experience that few (non-Vets) can imagine.  They have the campaign star, t-shirt and (visible or invisible) scars.  So please don't speak on their behalf or jump to conclusions without evidence.

 

[armyvern]

Gunner98,

Yes. Thanks for pointing that out, another possible factor that I overlooked.

Roto is an especially busy time for those departing, returning, and those doing the handovers and operating the FOBs. To view their irregular attendance on this site as something other than that may certainly be premature and unwarranted.

Veronica

 

[MJP]

pnp

Your little rant could be considered an insult to many.

If I may add to the picture, a few lines from your own profile as posted at this very instance on this site:

MOC:         Infantry in a staff job.
Mil Exp:      Pretty vanilla - no Afghanistan time yet. Waitin' my turn with ears wide open.


So I am left with the question as to what your whole post is about.  

Could your post be one of the causes of this whole Topic.  A disgruntled individual out for one thing, and one thing only; to stir up shyte with the "Staff"?

I don't know if he is stirring up shyte but his post rings true in a few regards.  I knew quite a few 1VP people that if not regular posters, were regular lurkers but lost interest or left in disgust over a few things.  When the TF1-06 went overseas, it was obviously followed with great interest here at Army.ca. There was a time that every little article in the newspaper was posted and critiqued every which way by people that felt they could have done the job better. The speculation on some incidents made my blood boil at times.  People that never left the hard packed highways while on other Afghan Rotos commenting on vehicle incidents, when in fact we took our vehicles places even the Americans said we couldn't go.  Members speculating everytime a suicide bomber managed to hit a convoy and how slack the security must have been to to let the bomber in that close.  When in fact anyone that has ever been involved in one would know that suicide bombers, like IEDs are one of the hardest attacks to defend against.  One of the worst was on of my (at the time) fellow section commanders.  Who was heavily attacked for the security surrounding the axe attack on Lt Greene.  A situation that was next to impossible to predict and like many suicide bombers hard to stop 100%. IT was causing him even more stress and grief in a time that it wasn't needed at all. That is a few examples and it wasn't like the critiques were being made by young soldiers that didn't know better, but in many cases many senior members on the site that should have known better.  I can remember many members doing the exact same thing on 3VP Op Apollo, talking out their collective @sses with never being there. 

Now with that said I have noticed that in many cases now, speculation surrounding incidents are dealt with fairly straightforward and posters are told to cease fire unless they were on the ground at the time.  IMHO the only guys that can truly critiques any incident over there are the men on the ground and their leadership and for the most part Army.ca has done a good job in that regard. SO to sum up in recent months yes Army.ca has stopped the speculation but historically it's track record was horrible and it was a long time in coming.  So yes I can see where probum non poenitet is coming from.

 

[armyvern]

MJP,

Agreed that some of those things did occur in the past. I think though, in most cases, the staff were quick to jump in and lock up the thread, clean out some of the BS in it and deal with the speculator appropriately.

I know that I reported a post once before I was a mod because of what was pure speculation on an incident in-theatre, and by the time I got back to the thread it no longer existed.

Hopefully, this trend of speculating has become the exception rather than the norm. I encourage everyone to indeed hit that "report thread" button when it occurs so that it can be dealt with quickly. Mods can not be in every thread all the time, so please, do report it so that we know it's there!!

Better yet, when incidents do occur, I highly suggest that we all remain professional and refrain from any kind of speculation for indeed, as MJP has stated, only you will look like the ass in the end when the facts of the matter are officially released.

Again, excellent point MJP.

 

[George Wallace]

MJP

In most cases, the speculation in was fact curiosity and people trying to figure out what was happening.  It is the nature of our Trades.  It is true that the only ones in the know are the guys on the ground, but they are also not readily available to be posting on Army.ca.  Next up to bat would be the guys, as you said, who had been on previous Tours, so naturally they would be next in line for having relevant info, or one would think.  It is all part of the search for answers, knowledge of what will make us all better at our jobs, or in other words a form of Lessons Learned.  

We could go down the line on experience of the posters, until we land up with the cadets.  All we can do is attempt to keep the SME's posts and filter out the the chaff, and keep the topics relevant.  

We also have to be careful of OPSEC and PERSEC when posting.  Some of the Lessons Learned coming in from some of the posters, unfortunately had to be pruned.  Then we had to deal with Casualties, and keep the topics civil and respectful.  Nothing is more aggravating than some numpty trying to post an off colour joke in a memorial thread.

Yeah!  It is fun dealing with some of the jokers who seem to be set on upsetting the site.  On a whole most of the site members have been very understanding and cooperative in keeping order.  They too, have responsibilities.

 

[George Wallace]

......And now everyone can see that we all look at the topics from different perspectives.

 

[Mike Bobbitt]

Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to post in this thread. This is how we can discuss Army.ca, its faults and how to fix them. Everyone has been civil in delivering and accepting criticism, and I think our community will improve as a result. There have certainly been a lot of valid points made from all quarters.

If we are driving vets away, we are doing them - and ourselves - a terrible disservice. Ironically, PNP, it could be very easy to interpret your post as an indicator that we have gone too soft at times. I don't believe that was your point though, I think it was more to point out an attitude shift, but correct me if I'm wrong.

I think - as has been pointed out - that we're all learning how to cope with the victories and the tragedies associated with Afghanistan, and while we're finding our way, we have made some mis-steps as we go.

I believe we defer to those in the know as much as we are able. Sometimes it's not evident who is in the know and who is not - as a result some armchair generals may have their comments stand as gospel while vets may have theirs questioned. I'm sure that's terribly frustrating, but we do the best we can with the information at hand.

I know it's beating a dead horse, but a "Report to moderator" with a simple "this guy is in the know" or "sorry, facts are wrong here" is a great indicator for us.

In addition the the 15 year old cadets and the 20 year retirees (only been 10 for me ) we have a number of Staff who have played/are playing an active role in Afghanistan. We lean heavily on their expertise to guide us, just as we do with our other SMEs.

Again, I appreciate all the feedback and commentary, I think it's a positive thing for us as a community. If anyone has additional feedback, or examples of a problem, please don't hesitate to post them here for public discussion, or PM me with them if you feel a private chat is more appropriate.


Thanks
Mike

 

[orange.paint]

Hi
I have seen a problem I wish to confront.I was actively viewing you thread last night at:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/56849.0.html

I noticed today that GO!!! was placed on C&P.However I find it unjust as to what us the public viewer has seen.The Moderator George Wallace was in my opinion out of line.I have been viewing this board for quite some time now and find him quite arrogant.

I found it amusing that he started to compare his coldwar time to today.Not that I find that time as a soldier non important.I do however find it quite jovial that Mr Wallace will complain about how hard it was in the past,how they did such a great job then talk about how many beer he could store in his APC or Tank.Found here.
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/1698/post-19811.html#msg19811

Ordering "Green Grenades" on a ADREP.Sorry Mr Wallace but our soldiers are preparing to fight a real war,and cannot afford the luxury of having a cold one during training.Such actions would now get them removed from the tour.

What pique's me the most is that GO!!! is now not allow to post while George Wallace who became confrontational first in my opinion gets no reprimand.

Isn't this sort of like putting your barking dog outside and when it gets the neighbours dog barking you muzzle the neighbours dog?

Staff Conduct

"To use old (but true) military quips, Staff are expected to lead by example and be above reproach. That means that all members of the Army.ca Staff need to take extra care in their actions here"

Next I'm going to move onto the deleting of post's,editing of post.I understand that sometimes as in the last post I referenced it went off topic.I understand deleting this.However in the past (yes,I'm a old member.I was never banned but feel the need to come here under a guise)I have seen MOD's take a post totally edit it to serve themselves,lock the topic and make the other guy look dotterel.I have seen one of the MOD's "buddies" post a derogatory comment about someone,when that person retaliates he is placed on C&P/BANNED.

Where is the proof?Am I committing perjury?
Honestly how the heck can a low level person on this board going to prove anything.That's the problem.On army.ca there are three types of people.The people who are obsequious every second post to get their point across without someone jumping down their throats.And you have the people who are confrontational (who don't last long...when I left I myself was on my last legs here.)They tend not to agree with everything the MOD's or their friends say and certain MOD's have a hate on for them.Then it's the friends.I've seen GEO a popular poster here gets away with quite a few things I thought he should have received warnings for,however the friends in the moderators made sure he was protected.

This type of ignorance should not be tolerated:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/52953.0.html
However Journeyman gets away with it why?Due to friends in high places.

I've also noticed anything fitness related is usually stamped on my the mods.This makes me question their "dedication to the corp" or the CF for that matter.

Lets also go back a year to the "MOD squad" as we referred to them.Posting derogatory PM's by mistake.I believe it was Bruce Monkhouse who had done this actually.Is this professional?Does this not fall in under:

Staff Conduct

"To use old (but true) military quips, Staff are expected to lead by example and be above reproach. That means that all members of the Army.ca Staff need to take extra care in their actions here"


----------- Edit from Mike Bobbitt -----------

I either missed some of the above the first go around, or your jammed it in after I replied. I don't see the value in dredging up year old faults to pick at those scabs again. We didn't trot out your past transgressions and make you (once again) pay for them, I'd ask you afford my Staff the same courtesy. The solution is simple and has not changed... if you see a current thread that needs review, report to moderator.

----------- Edit from Mike Bobbitt -----------

I have left this site for obvious reasons,but have continued to visit to see the progress/lack there of.I enjoy the site although as i said I have inserted my foot in my mouth prior as have most of the people here.Due to the fact I get enraged over things like fitness,competence,soldering.

If Mike would have me back after asking to leave the site I would be honored.However I just want to know when are the mod's going to be moderated?When will the subjugation stop.

There should be no mistake who I am by this point.I understand it's against policy to have multiple accounts however I cannot log into my old one.

Cheers and best regards

Ex-RCAC_011

 

[Mike Bobbitt]

Thank-you, this is a good example, actually. Yes, George and GO!!! were going at it, and IMO both went too far. However neither was warned for that. GO!!! received his warning because, as things spiralled downward, 3 mods stepped in to call for calm (I was one of them). Immediately following my post asking that the infighting cease, GO!!! decided he had to get the last word in. George took his cue and let go. That, unfortunately for GO!!! made all the difference.

I then cleaned out the thread, and as a side-effect, you can no longer see the reason GO!!! is on RW. You must then (logically) assume that the warning was earned by the posts you did see, and with that limited view, it's easy to cry foul.

For completeness, I should also mention that I have spoken to George about the incident - more than I would have done with GO!!! had it not progressed to that crucial final stage. So while it *seems* GO!!! was wronged and George got off scott free, the reality is quite different. Unfortunately this is representative of many situations, where it is easy to conclude that the DS are abusing their power or acting with impunity. We are making some changes to how we do things to try to rectify this problem of perception.

I hope this clears things up.


Cheers
Mike

 

[Nfld Sapper]

found it amusing that he started to compare his coldwar time to today.Not that I find that time as a soldier non important.I do however find it quite jovial that Mr Wallace will complain about how hard it was in the past,how they did such a great job then talk about how many beer he could store in his APC or Tank.Found here.
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/1698/post-19811.html#msg19811

Ordering "Green Grenades" on a ADREP.Sorry Mr Wallace but our soldiers are preparing to fight a real war,and cannot afford the luxury of having a cold one during training.Such actions would now get them removed from the tour.

First of all why bring up a 3 year old thread for your example? Germany/Cold War time is a different ball of wax than the way we train now for ops now (ex. the sandbox)

I noticed today that GO!!! was placed on C&P.However I find it unjust as to what us the public viewer has seen.The Moderator George Wallace was in my opinion out of line.I have been viewing this board for quite some time now and find him quite arrogant.

Secondly you don't know why GO!!! was placed on C&P and quite frankly IMHO it really should be between him and the MODS.


Anyways my 2 cents worth, take it for what's it worth.