Armourchamp's Armour officer questions

[George Wallace]

As has been mentioned in many "Armour" discussions in this forum before, non-armour experienced contributors often act to degrade/derail the discussion, rather than contribute value to it.  If you don't know what you are talking about, then please keep your comments to yourself.

 

[Pusser]

I don't think Pusser is saying that an officer shouldn't be unaware or unskilled when it comes to the crew positions. Just that as an armoured crewman you would spend many more hours in one position than your troop leader.

From what I read, Pusser wasn't disparaging the technical skills of armour officers, just tapping into that addage that practice makes perfect.

Thank you.  That is precisely what I was getting at.

To relate it to my first hand experience:  When I was a mechanic, both the officer and I would know when an engine needed a ring job.  Both the officer and I would know how to do it.  Both the officer and I were capable of doing it.  However, when it actually came down to doing it, who do you think could do it faster and with less fuss?  Practice indeed does make perfect and that is all I've been getting at.  No disparagement of the Armoured Corps or Armoured Officers was intended nor should have been inferred.

 

[George Wallace]

Pusser

I understand what you are getting at.  The Armour Corps is different from the other Arms in a way that, being a small crew confined in a vehicle, all members must have a good knowledge each others jobs.  Of course the position they are filling at the time is the position that they are likely most proficient at at the time.  The Crew Commander must be proficient in all the positions.  A Troop Leader must not only be a Crew Commander, but a Troop Leader of three to ten other vehicles.  The levels of proficiency rise with the ranks/posns.

In no other Cbt Arm is the officer so likely to be required to be proficient in filling a Crew Posn as in the Armour Corps.  It is their profession. 

 

[Pusser]

OK.  I surrender.

 

[Franko]

Alright, the things that Reg Force Officer candidates are taught on their DP 1.1 (Old ph3). The same skills are taught to NCOs and reservists as well.

25mm Turret Operator Course * (1 month) - taught how to maintain the 25mm gun/ turret, employ weapons systems and properly supervise their gunner.  Conduct live fire range at end(omitted for NCOs as it's a prerequisite to attend)

Tactics in house portion (3 weeks):
- Battle Procedure (including full demo and 4 DS assisted sessions)
- how to move the vehicle (emergencies only. omitted for NCOs)
- ground guiding (Omitted for NCOs)
- TACNAV system intro and set up (omitted for NCOs) *
- how to operate GID 3/ CAM/ RADIAC **
- Basic recce tactics/ movement/ drills (RAPZ/ leap frog, caterpillar, snake, column, overwatch / laterals, long/ short defiles, gap, crest, blind corner, bridges)
- Reports and returns along with basic comms skills (omitted for NCOs)
- call for indirect fire (artillery SMEs teach that portion)
- how to command a CRV
- primary tasks of Recce (RAPZ)
- Secondary tasks (rear area security, recce pull, sec LDs, est HLS, convoy escort, Chemical Recce Teams, est attack positions etc)
- Urban operations (operating in a 3D environment)
- Observation Posts
- Traffic Control Points
- Vehicle Check Points
- Basic CBRN operations
- How to command a CRT **
- replenishment of a CRV
- hides, harbours, leagures - how to occupy and priority of work
- Basic AFV recognition (if there is time and DS available, omitted for NCOs)

Field portion (3 weeks - 1 month):
- 1 demo trace (zone) conducted by DS (movement only)
- full traces minimum of 12 per student with full AAR at trace end
- minimum one tactical hide per week
- traces are RAPZ with secondary tasks rolled in as well
- replen CRV daily and maintenance weekly


There is alot more but that's the bulk of it.

The actual commanding of the vehicle is a challenge for most candidates. From directing the driver throughout and giving updated arcs to the gunner and Surv Op, plotting all contacts and the progress of other patrols, figuring out how the enemy may affect you and the patrol and doing something about it, to communicating over multiple nets to higher and filling in your crew on what is actually going on. Then there is actually trying to find the enemy or, if you're unlucky, him finding you and you having to defend yourself in a split second.

An Officer candidate is qualified the exact same as an NCO candidate and must be as proficient. The difference is an Officer candidate does not bring to the table the same skills set and work experience as an NCO does.

The learning curve is steep but not unattainable to get the standard required to pass. The DS will not let you just get the standard and leave you there either. We will push you harder and harder to get you to perform to your peak effectiveness so you will come out with the necessary skills required at the Regiment.

Then there is another aspect of it all, I liken all of this to the hiring of a new employee. We're (the DS) involved in the hiring process and if you think for a second we'll let you through and put my friends and colleagues into harms way without being proficient in the above mentioned skill set....we do have the final say.

It rarely comes to that, but it has happened. Even one candidate who passed the required traces to pass the course was not granted the qualification due to lack of leadership abilities and outright lying to Staff.

Regards

* 25mm platform only
** ARCC only

 

[Quag]

Then there is another aspect of it all, I liken all of this to the hiring of a new employee. We're (the DS) involved in the hiring process and if you think for a second we'll let you through and put my friends and colleagues into harms way without being proficient in the above mentioned skill set....we do have the final say.

DPK,

While I see what you are trying to say here, remember that DS are DS.  Nothing more, nothing less.  Their jobs are to instruct and mentor candidates on any course.  They are also there to assess.  However, it is up to Course O's, and Commandants of schools to have the final say in a candidate.  For example, there was a period of time when a candidate could pass a course without passing a trace (as pathetic as that was!).

It's a moot point, but since Armourchamp is trying to figure out the system, I just want all our information to be as accurate as it can be.

:2c:

 

[Franko]

DPK,

While I see what you are trying to say here, remember that DS are DS.  Nothing more, nothing less.  Their jobs are to instruct and mentor candidates on any course.  They are also there to assess.  However, it is up to Course O's, and Commandants of schools to have the final say in a candidate.  For example, there was a period of time when a candidate could pass a course without passing a trace (as pathetic as that was!).

It's a moot point, but since Armourchamp is trying to figure out the system, I just want all our information to be as accurate as it can be.

:2c:

Poor choice of words on my behalf...PM inbound.

DS input is weighed heavily in the recommendations put forward for the Cmdt's consideration prior to his final say.

Regards

 

[vonGarvin]

DS input is weighed heavily in the recommendations put forward for the Cmdt's consideration prior to his final say.

Again, to amplify on Der Panzerkommandant, this is probably the meat of the PRBs I attend, albeit at the Infantry School.  The Crse O represents his DS, and this is also evident in the file itself, with every chit detailing a written appreciation of the DS' assessment of the candidate in question.

 

[Franko]

Again, to amplify on Der Panzerkommandant, this is probably the meat of the PRBs I attend, albeit at the Infantry School.  The Crse O represents his DS, and this is also evident in the file itself, with every chit detailing a written appreciation of the DS' assessment of the candidate in question.

Don't forget, we also have that thing called Total Person Concept.     

Not used often...but it's there.

Regards

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Graduating from the Armour School from DP 1.2 is certainly an achievement, but I just want to add that it doesn't really teach you how to be an officer.  You learn how to fight a Troop of AFVs to include the ins and outs of battle procedure and leadership, but the officership piece really comes when you get to your regiment.  Your OC, 2IC, BC, SSM and Tp WO will guide you through that process, along with the CO, RSM and Adjt.  Some of that guidance will be pleasant.  Some of it will be unpleasant.  All of it will be valuable and by Christmas of your first year at the Regiment (you usually get there in Aug/Sep) you should start to be comfortable in the saddle.

Cheers!

 

 

[Quag]

Graduating from the Armour School from DP 1.2 is certainly an achievement, but I just want to add that it doesn't really teach you how to be an officer.  You learn how to fight a Troop of AFVs to include the ins and outs of battle procedure and leadership, but the officership piece really comes when you get to your regiment.  Your OC, 2IC, BC, SSM and Tp WO will guide you through that process, along with the CO, RSM and Adjt.  Some of that guidance will be pleasant.  Some of it will be unpleasant.  All of it will be valuable and by Christmas of your first year at the Regiment (you usually get there in Aug/Sep) you should start to be comfortable in the saddle.

Cheers!

Couldn't have said it better myself.  You will step on your tail a couple times of times at best.  At the end of the day, it makes you a better person and you now have something to share beers over at the mess.

Poor choice of words on my behalf...PM inbound.

DS input is weighed heavily in the recommendations put forward for the Cmdt's consideration prior to his final say.

Regards

Absolutely, DPK.  As I stated, I knew what you were trying to say. I just wanted to ensure the clarity in the post as the original poster is someone that is brand new to this all.