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Armed Medics

That being said if medics are required to provide security and man trenches etc. then there also needs to be some standardized training provided to medics to perform the job properly. If I was an infanteer and my sentries were medics who's only sentry experiences were during their basic training course I'm pretty sure I would'nt be sleeping too restfully that night.

sqn_medic hit the nail on the head!  The regulation makers need to grasp the concept that is the common view.  Who would you rather to provide medical assistance... a medic or an infanteer.  Likewise who would you feel safer conducting security duty... an infanteer or a medic?

This of course isn't to say that soldiers wouldn't help eachother out whenever required... no matter what trade you are.  We are all on the same team.
 
Gentlemen,
Every Med Tech in the CF belongs to a medical unit, and ultimately CF H Svc Gp. Therefore all medics carry weapons for their own self-defence, and must act in accordance with GC IRT how they engage the enemy. That being medics can not undertake offensive operations against en forces. They can only shoot back, within established ROEs.

So basically, ask yourself if you want your sentry only to be able to fire their weapon in self defence?

This is why Med Techs (actually any pers under GC rules) shall not be used as a sentry/guard/security in operations overseas.

2023 said:
In my outside the box thinking, this does not exclude a medic from doing sentry, manning a perimeter trench, manning the air sentry hatch, etc.
Right, of a medical facility, or ambulance. Not the infantry company position, while they send out fighting patrols.

 
I'll call you on this:

So when your Bn's medics are decentralized and with the Coy's, they man a trench, in depth of course, however they cannot fire when the position is being over run until they are about to be shot?? I disagree with your point Ashley, and find it silly really. Explain how the JTF medics can do security details, explain why 2 Fd Amb does live fire defensive ex's, explain why Fd Amb does harbour security?? For self defence practice???

"That being medics can not undertake offensive operations against en forces." Oh really??? Define Offensive Operations for me please. Does not the current action in Afganistan count as Offensive Action? Didn't the storming of Juno Beach count as Offensive Action?? So if there is GC Convention being breached, and it goes to trial, you are saying that because medics were on the ground during an advance, it was a breach of the GC??????????????? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I think the GC is very open to arguement for a reason so that medics, can be used as a rifle when push comes to shove. Read them in detail and let me know the loopholes you find..............you won't be able write them down in a weeks time.

BTW, the smallest manouver group/unit in the Military is a fireteam so unless there are two of you medics, you are individuals and not a unit.

Chimo!!!!!!!!!!!

How's Pet making out? Still trying to shove 5 lbs of s**t in a 2 lb bag or what?

 
Pet is Pet, no change.

I have never seen 2 FD Amb do a live fire anything. Its scary enough on the prepared standard ranges. I can't speak of JTF medics cause I honestly do not know.

If a medic is still in his trench while his campany has been over run, he is to surrender, identifying himself as a medic, and he should be given permission to care for any causalties. Fd Amb does harbour and stand too drills, but as part of that role we can not fire first, only return fire after identifying ourselves as a medical unit/facility.

During the advance, Med techs should not be in the lead section, with the lead platoon, maneuvering in attacking the enemy posn. That would be offensive actions. We are not allowed to fire unless in self defence. We should be a little ways behind the lead company working on the fallen.


 
Armymedic said:
Pet is Pet, no change.

I have never seen 2 FD Amb do a live fire anything. Its scary enough on the prepared standard ranges. I can't speak of JTF medics cause I honestly do not know.

If a medic is still in his trench while his campany has been over run, he is to surrender, identifying himself as a medic, and he should be given permission to care for any causalties. Fd Amb does harbour and stand too drills, but as part of that role we can not fire first, only return fire after identifying ourselves as a medical unit/facility.

During the advance, Med techs should not be in the lead section, with the lead platoon, maneuvering in attacking the enemy posn. That would be offensive actions. We are not allowed to fire unless in self defence. We should be a little ways behind the lead company working on the fallen.

I know that you are defending your Branch, and I respect that however, you really need to think in a broad sense because Offensive Action is exactly what your company medics are doing, whether or not they are at the pointy end or not. Surrender after letting the rest of your Coy, Pn get overrun??? An honourable profession.

I know what you are saying though, I honestly do. I just have my opinions of the GC.

Another question: where does it say that a Medic can't provide cover during a search?
 
How narrow do you need the paint brush?

Nowhere does it say that, but why would you?
Its the same a a infantry coy commander saying, "hey, you Engineers can do a section attack, you lead the company at the next posn."

Sure, you could, but not as well, and he could lose a valuable resource. If you only have one or two Coy medics, why put them out front where they can get snuffed?

We must follow the spirit of the GC, as well as act in accordance to what is written. And yes, I am repeating the party lines...but that is the official stance, and it is so for very good reasons.

 
The following is an older reference (Memo), but I assume still valid.
All medics were given a copy of this.

Quote

Office Of The Judge Advocate General
Memorandum
3440-13 (DLaw)

1 Feb 94

Distribution List

ARMING OF MEDICAL PERSONNEL AND ARMOURED AMBULANCES

Ref: 3350-250/0 (Surg Gen) 30 Sep 93

1.  Ref A posed two questions:

      a.      what weapons may medical personnel legitimately carry
                without jeopardizing their standing as protected personnel
                or contravening the Geneva Conventions; and

      b.      what weapons can be mounted on medical vehicles i.e.
                ambulances without jeopardizing their protected status
                or contravening the Geneva Conventions.

2.                I apologize for the delay in responding. I did however wish, in addition
to analyzing the relevant law, to canvass the practice of a number of our allies since
the decision on this issue may well incorporate policy as well as legal requirements.

3.                Military medical personnel in time of armed conflict are entitled to special
protection pursuant to the Geneva Convention for the Amelioration of the Wounded
and Sick in Armed Forces in the Field (GC1) and the Geneva Convention for the
Amelioration of the Condition of the Wounded, Sick and Shipwrecked Members of
Armed Forces at Sea (GC2) of 1949. Amplification of this protection is provided in
Additional Protocol 1 of 1977 to the Geneva Conventions of 1949 (Protocol 1).
Canada is a party to all these conventions.

4.              The granting of special status to military medical personnel in the Geneva
Conventions is founded upon the concept that although military these personnel are
essentially non-combatants. This philosophy explains why dedicated military medical
personnel always have this status, while auxilary military medical personnel only have
this status when they are actually carrying out their medical duties such as hospital
orderlies or auxiliary stretcher bearers.

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5.              The Geneva Conventions and Additional Protocols do not directly specify
what, if any weapons, medical personnel may be armed with, however this can be
determined indirectly. It is clear, since the 1906 versions of the Geneva Conventions,
that military medical personnel can be armed. Military medical units do not lose their
protected status simply because the personnel of the unit are armed and use the arms
in their own defence (GC1 art 22(1)).  These units can however lose their protection,
after due warning, if they are used to commit outside their humanitarian duties, acts
harmful to the enemy. This means that military medical personnel can be issued with,
carry and use, if necessary, weapons but only for personal defence or defence of sick
and wounded under their care.


6.              Protocol 1 at art 13, which deals with the protection of civilian medical
units, specify that such units do not lose their status simply because the personnel
of the unit are equipped with light individual weapons for their own defence of for that
of their patients.

7.            In fact the term "light individual weapons" which is certainly more precise
and possibly more stringent than the terminology "arms in their own defence" has been
interpreted to include rifles. This is done in the Red Cross sponsored Commentary
elaborating on Protocol 1 which states:

          " ... it appears for the discussions in Committee II regarding this article
            and, regarding the cessation of protection to which civil defence
            organizations are entitled, that it refers to weapons which are generally
            carried and used by a single individual. Thus not only hand weapons
            such as pistols are permitted, but also rifles or even sub-machine guns.
            On the other hand, machine guns and any other heavy arms which
            cannot easily be transported by an individual and which have to be
            operated by a number of people are prohibited."

8.                  This interpretation has been adopted by several of our allies including the
Netherlands, Germany, the United States and the United Kingdom. Indeed, the United
Kingdom, the United States and Germany in 1988 apparently established, by tri-lateral
agreement, that it was their position that pistol, sub-machine guns and rifles were all
permissible weapons for arming medical personnel.

9.                  The answer to question 1(a) is that CF medical personnel can be
legitimately armed with pistols, sub-machine guns or rifles without endangering their
special status or violating the provisions of the Geneva Convention.  The type of
weapon is only one half of the equation, since it is their method of use, in self-defence
or defence of sick and wounded under care which is also necessary for continued
protection. What is perhaps most valuable for answering the second question you
pose is the concept that, while arguably any weapon might be used in self-defence
or defence of the sick or wounded, certain weapons are clearly designed to do much
more than that and permit offensive attacks. These weapons are inconsistent with the

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protected status of medical units and personnel,
who are not permitted to participate
in military activities or resist the enemy but are limited to defending themselves when
their status is not properly recognized.


10.        The issue of the arming of medical vehicles is much more problematic.
Medical transports (including armoured ambulances) are protected by their status.
This status may be permanent or temporary but at all times must be exclusive. That
is any medical transport claiming protected status must be exclusively devoted to
medical purposes.

11.          There are no specific provisions providing for what arms can be carried
on a medical transport. Protocol 1, art 21, states medical vehicles must be respected
and protected in the same way as mobile medical units. Mobile medical units must
generally comply with the same prohibition against being used for acts which are
harmful to the enemy as fixed medical units.

12.              The list of activities which are permitted and which do not endanger the
protected status of military medical units, mobile medical units and medical vehicles
are essentially the same. In terms of arms this means that if medical personnel
operating the ambulance are armed with light weapons for personal protection or
protection of the sick and wounded then this does not jeopardize the medical vehicles
protected status.

13.            It does not seem that vehicle mounted weapon, either a 50 cal machine
gune or a GPMG would meet that description. informaal discussion with the Land
Doctrine people indicate that while these can be considered defensive weapons they
would not normally be categorized as light individual or self-defence weapons.

14.              In addition to this legal analysis there appears to be practical reasons not
to vehicle mount weapons on medical transports. As pointed out by my US contacts,
a practical reason why they do not vehicle mount weapons on their armoured
ambulances is that in conditions of poor visibility frequently the silouhette, rather than
the markings of a vehicle are relied upon for identification. An armoured vehicle which
was a medical transport with a vehicle mounted weapon would look like any other
armoured vehicle.

15.              A survey of the German, Dutch, UK and US authorities indicate that none
of them vehicle mount weapons on medical vehicles, including armoured ambulances.
Most recently the Germans have wrestled with the question of whether to install door
guns in medical transport helicopters. They decided against it on the basis that this
would not fall into the category of light personal weapons.

16.              Of course if an armoured ambulance is not seeking the status of
medical vehicle, that is it is not identified as such and does not seek exemption from
attack, that is it acts and expects to be treated as any other combatant vehicle then

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any weapon can be mounted on it.

17.                It is the mixture of a claim/expectation of protection and weaponry
inconsistent with the non-combatant status of a medical vehicle which can cause
problems. An extreme case might be the mobile SCUD launcher ambulance. Clearly
even if not used, the type of weaponry on the vehicle is inconsistent with the status
of a protected medical vehicle. If identified with a Red Cross and if used as a missle
launcher, charges of misuse of the Red Cross emblem and perfidy could also be
appropriate. This is clearly an extreme, but even in less clear situations there is
always a danger of encouraging misperception or potential misuse by over-arming
medical vehicles; implicitly relying on arms instead of status for protection.

18.                The answer to question 1(b) is that the mounting of a weapon on an
armoured ambulance when the weapon does not fall into the category of one used for
self-defence (i.e. a light individual weapon) within the Geneva Conventions
exceptions, could be construed as an act harmful to the enemy which can lead to the
loss of the protected status of a medical vehicle.

19.                  I hope this somewhat delayed resonse fully answers your question. I
am also enclosing copies of some memos dealing with related questions which may
be of interest.

K.S. Carter
LCol
DLaw/l

 
Is the CG a:

1-reciprocal agreement between the signatories

or

2-a proclamation of the signatory countries intentions/action during conflict

I guess the question is do you only owe the duty(s) set out in the CG to those who are signatory. 
 
http://www.hrweb.org/legal/geneva1.html

The answer to that is, you owe them to everybody, even if they don't, or didn't sign.

CHAPTER I
General Provisions

    * Article 1. The High Contracting Parties undertake to respect and to ensure respect for the present Convention in all circumstances.

    * Article 2. In addition to the provisions which shall be implemented in peacetime, the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them.

      The Convention shall also apply to all cases of partial or total occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party, even if the said occupation meets with no armed resistance.

      Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations. They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof.

    * Article 3. In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:
          o (1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria. To this end, the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:
                + (a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
                + (b) taking of hostages;
                + (c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;
                + (d) the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

          o (2) The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for. An impartial humanitarian body, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross, may offer its services to the Parties to the conflict.

            The Parties to the conflict should further endeavour to bring into force, by means of special agreements, all or part of the other provisions of the present Convention.

            The application of the preceding provisions shall not affect the legal status of the Parties to the conflict.

    * Article 4. Neutral Powers shall apply by analogy the provisions of the present Convention to the wounded and sick, and to members of the medical personnel and to chaplains of the armed forces of the Parties to the conflict, received or interned in their territory, as well as to dead persons found.

    * Article 5. For the protected persons who have fallen into the hands of the enemy, the present Convention shall apply until their final repatriation.

    * Article 6. In addition to the agreements expressly provided for in Articles 10, 15, 23, 28, 31, 36, 37 and 52, the High Contracting Parties may conclude other special agreements for all matters concerning which they may deem it suitable to make separate provision. No special agreement shall adversely affect the situation of the wounded and sick, of members of the medical personnel or of chaplains, as defined by the present Convention, nor restrict the rights which it confers upon them.

      Wounded and sick, as well as medical personnel and chaplains, shall continue to have the benefit of such agreements as long as the Convention is applicable to them, except where express provisions to the contrary are contained in the aforesaid or in subsequent agreements, or where more favourable measures have been taken with regard to them by one or other of the Parties to the conflict.

    * Article 7. Wounded and sick, as well as members of the medical personnel and chaplains, may in no circumstances renounce in part or in entirety the rights secured to them by the present Convention, and by the special agreements referred to in the foregoing Article, if such there be.
 
Thanks but it makes me wonder if the CG is antiquated in today's conflicts.  The majority of which are not traditional.  It seems like were are playing the same sport but with different rules.
 
There are three perspectives to consider: the ethical, the legal, and the practical.

The ethical (humanitarian) idea is that non-combatant members of military forces (eg. chaplains and medical personnel) and those who are hors de combat should be little oases of inviolability - to the extent practicable - in the cauldron of battle.  In exchange for that protection which it is the duty of combatants to grant, protected persons have a reciprocal duty to refrain from active hostilities, to be identifiable and prepared to self-identify, and to assert their protected status until it is clear that they are not being granted protected status, at which time the inherent right of self-defence kicks in.  In short, were the battalion medical officer and chaplain the last men standing in the square after the artillery had blasted it to shreds with cannister, it were not to them to defend the honour of the regiment but rather to surrender and seek to care for and minister to the survivors.  The ethical idea is very clear, and so when wrestling with an ethical dilemma regarding employment of protected persons, the question to ask is whether one is seeking to create a loophole to bypass that basic idea.

The ethical idea is codified in the GCs, which are not only unilaterally binding on the original signatories, but have the status of customary international law - rules by which all are now expected to abide, or be judged.  The basic idea that protected persons seek only to defend themselves (and those under their protection) when necessary and eschew active engagement once security is re-established.  Again, when one is hunting through the GCs by line and article to find loopholes, the question to ask is whether one is again seeking to subvert the underlying intention.

The practical idea is that no one should write a cheque that someone else may have to pay.  If one doesn't clearly mark installations and vehicles and people, or one contributes to ambiguity and misidentification by siting near military targets and mounting heavy or crew-served weapons and manning general defensive positions while serving in combat units, then it is possible someone else is going to be the victim of a foe who has decided Canadians are not following the rules and has ceased to trouble himself too much to separate combatants and non-combatants in his sights.  Your misuse or incompetent use of protected status could cost someone else life or limb and broadly compromise protections for an extended period.  As for the individual medic attached to a platoon or company, I'd suppose you to be neglecting your duties if in a firefight you were laying down fire instead of keeping track of where everyone is, planning where to site your CCP and how to get safely to and from it, and responding to cries of "Medic!" or "Corpsman!".  Like the platoon commander, you have something more important to do than contribute a couple of magazines of semi-automatic rifle fire to the orchestra of C9s and C6s and C7s and grenades and rockets.

old medic has done an excellent job of identifying pertinent information and highlighting key points.  Hopefully this issue has been nailed down.
 
Brad Sallows said:
As for the individual medic attached to a platoon or company, I'd suppose you to be neglecting your duties if in a firefight you were laying down fire instead of keeping track of where everyone is, planning where to site your CCP and how to get safely to and from it, and responding to cries of "Medic!" or "Corpsman!".  Like the platoon commander, you have something more important to do than contribute a couple of magazines of semi-automatic rifle fire to the orchestra of C9s and C6s and C7s and grenades and rockets.

You've brought forward an interesting take on the whole issue and have effectively changed some of my current views on the topic.  I agree with every word that you are saying regarding the set duties of each soldier and if a medic is putting rounds down range then they are not attending to their primary function which is to attend to the wounded...  I am still left stomaching the fact that it seems we are now fighting enemies who don't play by the rules and it brings about the feeling of the increased demand to protect ones self.  Where is the line drawn when fighting one of these enemies... When is it best to replace the scalpel with the rifle....
 
I don't see what the big misunderstanding is here.  Being a medic does not make you a non-combatant.  Being an infanteer doesn't make you a combatant.  The GC says that those who wish to be considered non-combatants should display a red cross/crescent moon/whatever to inform the enemy of this.  This can be anyone from the infanteer who is being employed as a stretcher bearer, to a chaplain, or the medic who is not acting in a combat role.  Protection under the red cross has nothing to do with your trade, but is concerned with what role you are fulfilling.  If you want a medic tagging along on your offensive operation and you want them to engage the enemy according to ROE, bring them along, just don't give them a red cross.  As far as a medic putting rounds downrange in a firefight, that's what they should be doing as long as they aren't wearing the red cross.  Both TCCC and PHTLS protocols state that the care you can deliver while under effective fire is zero to crappy.  That's just my humble opinion though.
 
You don't see it because from what I gather from your statements, you do not understand what we are talking about.
Irregardless of  enemy, we as signators of the GC must still follow the rules.

What the US Army does (and they do exactly as you say...their medics do not wear a cross) is borderline unethical and outside the guidance of our Surg Gen.

Although I do not completly disagree with your statements, as they are becoming a reality in the unconventional operations we undertake. In the conventional role, a med tech should not be able to engage the enemy, because there should be atleast one cbt arms sub unit between him and the enemy on the attack. You must realize what is done and what is right.

 
Okay, I'm way off then.  I thought I had it cased.  I didn't know that our Surgeon General outlined policy on this.

Armymedic said:
Irregardless of  enemy, we as signators of the GC must still follow the rules.

I never said that we need to trash the GC or go against it.  I just don't see how what I said would violate the GC.

Art. 24. Medical personnel exclusively engaged in the search for, or the collection, transport or treatment of the wounded or sick, or in the prevention of disease, staff exclusively engaged in the administration of medical units and establishments, as well as chaplains attached to the armed forces, shall be respected and protected in all circumstances.

A medic who is not displaying the red cross and is engaging the enemy according to ROE wouldn't fit under this description.  Since they are engaging enemy which means they aren't exclusively dealing with casualties, they wouldn't be considered "medical personel" or afforded protection under the GC.  I'm just trying to figure this out.
 
There are likely to always be belligerents whose respect for Law of Armed Conflict ranges from poor to none.  It is a risk that must be borne along with the risk of mistakes or violations in the heat of battle by otherwise scrupled combatants.  The line is drawn in the same place; what can be done is to incorporate that factor (disrespect of laws and customs of war) into your (rapid) estimate of the situation when deciding whether to prepare to defend yourself and those in your care.

>Being a medic does not make you a non-combatant.

If a medic shreds the Geneva Card and foregoes permanent protected status, then perhaps not.  Those who are not merely protected "while so employed" have permanent obligations.

>If you want a medic tagging along on your offensive operation and you want them to engage the enemy according to ROE, bring them along, just don't give them a red cross.

AFAIK, no-one below the level of formation commander (ie. brigade or higher) has the authority (unless devolved) to order Geneva symbols to not be displayed.  AFAIK, it is not given to anyone below the national political authority to decide whether Canada will comply with international law.  If Canada decides that our personnel who currently enjoy permanent protected non-combatant status will no longer do so, then "you" might be free to give any fire control orders "you" choose to "your" medics.  Until then, it's not "your" privilege to decide whether the Geneva Card in that person's wallet is merely a "get-out-of-jail-if-taken-prisoner" convenience for you to ignore at your will, thereby endangering all protected persons in our forces.
 
MapleLeaf4Evr said:
A medic who is not displaying the red cross and is engaging the enemy according to ROE wouldn't fit under this description.  Since they are engaging enemy which means they aren't exclusively dealing with casualties, they wouldn't be considered "medical personel" or afforded protection under the GC.  I'm just trying to figure this out.

On this you are correct. Think SOF medics. They are medically trained, but would not have GC protection.
 
I see I got the ball rolling on some great discussion here. I look forward to reading it all. Thanks to everyone who is contributing!
 
Brad Sallows said:
AFAIK, no-one below the level of formation commander (ie. brigade or higher) has the authority (unless devolved) to order Geneva symbols to not be displayed.  AFAIK, it is not given to anyone below the national political authority to decide whether Canada will comply with international law.  If Canada decides that our personnel who currently enjoy permanent protected non-combatant status will no longer do so, then "you" might be free to give any fire control orders "you" choose to "your" medics.  Until then, it's not "your" privilege to decide whether the Geneva Card in that person's wallet is merely a "get-out-of-jail-if-taken-prisoner" convenience for you to ignore at your will, thereby endangering all protected persons in our forces.

Obviously I wasn't implying that it was up to individual soldiers to decide whether or not to display the red cross.

Brad Sallows said:
If a medic shreds the Geneva Card and foregoes permanent protected status, then perhaps not.  Those who are not merely protected "while so employed" have permanent obligations.

So all medics in the CF are permanently subject to the GC by our doctrine?
 
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