Are we getting rid of our mine warfare capability?

[cobbler]

For expeditionary roles, what about using something like the Finnish Oksoy operating out of the wetwell of our eventual LPD/LHD?  In that manner you can still buy something relatively light, non-metallic, yet because it has a mother ship, it be can carried anywhere in the world we may need it.


Matthew.   

Because i doubt a >55m, 375 ton vessel could fit in a well dock. Let alone leave room for anything else. It would be a waste of a fat amphib.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Because i doubt a >55m, 375 ton vessel could fit in a well dock. Let alone leave room for anything else. It would be a waste of a fat amphib.

I believe I said something similar above...

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

RE: Norway vs Finland - typo. 

RE:  Size - I was attempting to infer similar design, not equivalent size as obviously the trade-off of wet well space is a prime concern.  Any chance we could design a package that could be integrated into LCAC's so they could have a dual-use?  I'm thinking something similar to the SAM systems used with the Swedish Landsort vessels.


Matthew. 

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

RE:  Size - I was attempting to infer similar design, not equivalent size as obviously the trade-off of wet well space is a prime concern.  Any chance we could design a package that could be integrated into LCAC's so they could have a dual-use?  I'm thinking something similar to the SAM systems used with the Swedish Landsort vessels.

I know they carry a 40mm and ASW mortars I don't think they are fitted with SAMs. Unless you are referrring to the mine hunting system they have designated as SAM.

 

[Greymatters]

Does Canada have any mine-sweeping assets left after this?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Any NavRes able to answer that?

 

[Privateer]

Does Canada have any mine-sweeping assets left after this?

While I have not taken the mine warfare course, as far as I know the MCDV is the only mine warfare platform we have.  There are no other "sweepers", so if the MCDVs go, that's it.  However, you could say that we would still have some mine-clearing assets:  The divers who are trained in destruction of mines.  Even with the MCDVs, in many scenarios the actual destruction of a detected mine would be the responsibility of divers.  We just wouldn't have any platforms for mine detection.

I don't think that you'd want an A/OPS to be involved in mine-clearing operations, even if it were technically capable of doing so.  The A/OPS would just be too large an asset to risk in mine operations.  One of the reasons mine-clearing vessels are small is so that you won't lose a big asset if it goes "boom".

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

I know they carry a 40mm and ASW mortars I don't think they are fitted with SAMs. Unless you are referrring to the mine hunting system they have designated as SAM.

Yep, that was exactly what I was referring to.  Based on graphics I've seen, it looks like groups of three (and for those that don't know they look like unmanned pontoon boats loaded with sensors) feed back into the main processing centre on the Landsort (or if we could adjust the model, into a temporary control vehicle mounted on the LCAC.  Then when the minesweeping task is done the control vehicle could be driven into the main vehicle storage area and the SAM's (unmanned pontoon boats, not missiles) loaded on some sort of trailer or carrier system, and their driven on the main vehicle storage area as well).

Another option could be fit the SAM (pontoon boat, not missile) sensor suite onto something that could be carried by davit in the same fashion we'd carry a rescue boat, in that way eliminating the need for fooling around with the wet well at all.  In either case, I think the mother ship-concept is one worth exploring. 


Matthew. 

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Then we lose a small boat and when you have a man overboard and due to weather you cannot use one of the zodiacs, you lose a man, there is a reason why we have zodiacs on both the stbd and port side.

And would not the pressure wave of an LCAC also be more then likely to set off a pressure mine? Minehunting is such a dedicated role, you need a dedicated platform for it. Putting it inside an LPD, then you lose a lot of troop lift making the LPD a glorified tender for most likely 1 minehunter. Waste of a resource.

Privateer good point about the A/OPV not really suited for mineclearance ops.

I do foresee some sort of UUV being developed to hunt and disable mines, but I do think a dedicated Minehunter is the best bet.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Then we lose a small boat and when you have a man overboard and due to weather you cannot use one of the zodiacs, you lose a man, there is a reason why we have zodiacs on both the stbd and port side.

And would not the pressure wave of an LCAC also be more then likely to set off a pressure mine? Minehunting is such a dedicated role, you need a dedicated platform for it. Putting it inside an LPD, then you lose a lot of troop lift making the LPD a glorified tender for most likely 1 minehunter. Waste of a resource.

Are you always so negative?  ;D

RE: The LCAC pressure wave would be significantly behind the deployed SAM's pontoon vessels so pressure wave shouldn't be a problem. 

RE:  Wasting space inside LPD wasting space for dedidated large minehunter - point conceded after initial statement.  Either create multi-use LCAC system, or create standalone mini-vessels.  RE:  Zodiac's on each side - I wouldn't change that.  What I would do is add additional side bays similar to those on the Mistral (and many other classes of vessels) that usually carry Zodiac's, but modify for anti-mine warfare assets (both manned and unmanned).


Matthew. 

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Personally I would feel safer if I had a dedicated MCM with me, that way I know the sailors over there know the ins and outs of looking for mines, not someone on my ship or another that only trains for it when needed.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Personally I would feel safer if I had a dedicated MCM with me, that way I know the sailors over there know the ins and outs of looking for mines, not someone on my ship or another that only trains for it when needed.

Okay....if you were spec'ing out your ideal MCM for expeditionary deployment, what would it look like?  How many do you think you'd need?  Estimated cost per unit?


Matthew.   

 

[Greymatters]

I think before you did that you would have to write a convincing argument for their retention and the likelihood of scenarios that would require anti-mine warfare.  At the moment, the politicians writing our defence strategy dont see the retention as important or the threat as viable.

 

[Privateer]

In this age of asymmetric warfare, the mine represents one of the cheapest ways to instil fear and damage commerce.  What would be the effect of an announcement by a hostile group that they had used a "fishing vessel" to drop a few mines in the Strait of Juan de Fuca?  Immediate and severe economic damage as maritime trade had to be stopped and/or rerouted.  And how would you address the threat without MCM capabilities?  To my mind the need for MCM capabilities is obvious.

 

[Stoker]

Does Canada have any mine-sweeping assets left after this?

The MCDV's have been out of the "sweeping business" for quite some time. What we primarily operate now is route survey in the form of side scan sonar. Most of the side scans can be operated on other platforms than an MCDV.

 

[Stoker]

Personally I would feel safer if I had a dedicated MCM with me, that way I know the sailors over there know the ins and outs of looking for mines, not someone on my ship or another that only trains for it when needed.

I agree that we need a dedicated MCM capability. If we were serious we would have dedicated MCM forces and be deploying abroad, unfortunately I can't see that happening ever because of money.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Okay....if you were spec'ing out your ideal MCM for expeditionary deployment, what would it look like?  How many do you think you'd need?  Estimated cost per unit?


Matthew.   

Matthew, you should know by now I don't do cost, as I am not in charge of finances, I am way too far down the chain and honestly it does not interest me. I do capabilities and roles, thats where my strengths and interests lie.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I think before you did that you would have to write a convincing argument for their retention and the likelihood of scenarios that would require anti-mine warfare.  At the moment, the politicians writing our defence strategy dont see the retention as important or the threat as viable.

I think its a matter of time before AQ, Hamas or the Furry Bunny Liberation Front uses mines in its war against the West.

 

[Spencer100]

I think its a matter of time before AQ, Hamas or the Furry Bunny Liberation Front uses mines in its war against the West.

Maybe dumb question,  what would it take for a AQ or Hamas to run a sea mining operation.  Could they make a simple mine in the basement and rent a boat?  Or do they need state "help" from say an Iran? 

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

well what is a mine when you look at it...a casing filled with explsoives that may or may not be set off by a complicated trigger