Applying from outside Canada (Merged)

[Teeps74]

I suppose that I am lucky that, as an NCO, your opinion is not taken into consideration when it comes to who gains a commission as you have no say in the matter.

Yes, because wanting to leave after minimum contract of service means poor ethics and reflects poor leadership skills.  :

NCOs, especially those with time in, usually have the ear of the RSM. The RSM's opinion is taken into consideration.

Deciding openly, that you will choose to milk the system is a question of ethics AND leadership potential. "Mission before self"... It is one of the main motivating factors for those of us who choose to serve. Right off the hop you are putting self before everything.

 

[George Wallace]

I suppose that I am lucky that, as an NCO, your opinion is not taken into consideration when it comes to who gains a commission as you have no say in the matter.
:

An attitude like this isn't going to garner you any respect on any front.  This is typically the opposite of the qualities the CF is looking for in its future officers.  The opinions of the NCO's are always worth consideration.  An officer who ignores them is setting themselves up for failure, not only in their daily tasks, but in their careers.  To dismiss the experience and knowledge of the NCO in such a cavalier way is an indication of poor leadership qualities.  That eliteism ranks high among the list of the worse qualities found in the worse leaders throughout history.  Before you become a leader, you should learn how to be a follower.

If you think that a NCO's opinion is not taken into consideration when it comes to gaining a commission, you are wrong.  You will likely find it is at their level where the initial screening starts, and their recommendations as to whether or not an applicant progresses to the next stage of selection.  Fail there, and you will have seen how far a NCO's opinion/recommendations can carry.

You really do know how to dig yourself into a hole; don't you?

 

[Teeps74]

And to be sure, I agree with Loachman. It is perfectly legal to come in with the intent to milk the system and get out as soon as possible.

I ask you though, why should we choose you over someone who has career aspirations? I would prefer to spend my blood, sweat and tears in training someone who has career aspirations, over someone merely going through the motions for 8. There is a very obvious difference in attitude (at least to me) between someone who has career aspirations and someone who does not...

You would be taking away a position from someone who, is frankly a better candidate then you.

 

[Shamrock]

I suppose that I am lucky that, as an NCO, your opinion is not taken into consideration when it comes to who gains a commission as you have no say in the matter.

Yes, because wanting to leave after minimum contract of service means poor ethics and reflects poor leadership skills.  :

Dude, you're going to have a rough time when you find out who assesses you on MPOAC.  And during BMOQ.  And during BMOQ-L.

 

[brihard]

On the question of minimal obligatory service, I'll defer to the several (more) senior NCOs and officers who've put in their views since I posted my view on this- they've put it better than I have, and I recognize my opinion on the matter is strong enough to probably put it outside the mainstream.

They've also put the officer/NCO thing in better words than I could.

 

[Journeyman]

The perceived tone of your posts also grates as others have pointed out.

But the writing is awesome -- eloquent, grammatically-correct, even taking the 30-seconds to spell-check.

Sure, in his posts he comes across as a self-serving douche -- but such a well-spoken douche.  :nod:

 

[Loachman]

You always look at the bright side.

Eventually, someday, somebody is going to get under even your happy skin.

I bet that whoever does so will be completely shocked by your response when that finally happens.

 

[mkil]

Reading through this entire thread is so very sad. If this idiot gets an ROTP position over some of the amazing applicants that we have in Canada, it will be a black day for the CF. All I can say to the OP is, please don't even bother applying. The CF does not need you, and it would be wrong for a person like you to take an ROTP position away from someone whose life aspiration is the honour and serve Canada.

 

[dcs]

There are those that will constantly try to use the system and all that is potentially offered to secure the maximum for themselves. 

There are also those that will to the last degree defend their own actions and choice of education/career etc.  This often to the total disregards of other individual's comments.

While there is nothing that prohibits an individual joining and doing the absolute minimum time, it will I am sure be evident during any recruiting process/interview etc.  I particularly found the earlier comment about all of the pilot training failures for these individuals to confirm same.

My two cents in regards to this individual are as follows:

1.  Are you going to abandon your student loan obligation in the current country of study??  How are they going to recover from salary when no longer in the country?? This would seem to indicate that you want to receive a heavily subsidized or free education wherever you are. Also that if not paying back that you will not honour your obligations.
2.  As stated, CIVI university is generally for degrees and programs "trade required" that are not offered at RMC. This is not the case for MP.
3.  As did not complete high school, unsure as to if you would even meet the requirements for ROTP, or the minimum education requirements for RMC.
4.  I have two sons at RMC currently. The number of cadets with MP as trade is extremely low.  There have been a few cadets that currently have very good marks that have asked about switching to MP and have been informed that unable to or trade closed.
5. I constantly have a problem with individuals that even if they receive an offer from RMC will turn it down and not go. Have even more with a person that wants to police the military side and military situations and laws, yet does not under any circumstance want to gain insight experience and knowledge by actually being a part of and living it.
8. Although it may not be entirely true, it comes across as a person that wants to work the system, even in ways it was not designed or intended for their own selfish personal benefit.
9. They are also looking for leadership, community service, sport and physical, military potential, integrity etc.
10. Competition is extremely fierce.  If you look at the other blogs you will see numerous individuals who state very solid academics and other items that were not selected for one or more years.  The recruiting centre told us that they had over 5 thousand individuals apply last year for about 400 spots.  Over 1,500 individuals "merit listed".
11. There is as well the whole medical issue, and requirements for all trades. (eyesight etc)

By all means, if you want to apply.  Personally, I do not think that you will be pleasantly surprised at the outcome. 

 

[jwtg]

My two cents in regards to this individual are as follows:

1.  Are you going to abandon your student loan obligation in the current country of study??  How are they going to recover from salary when no longer in the country?? This would seem to indicate that you want to receive a heavily subsidized or free education wherever you are. Also that if not paying back that you will not honour your obligations.
2.  As stated, CIVI university is generally for degrees and programs "trade required" that are not offered at RMC. This is not the case for MP.
3.  As did not complete high school, unsure as to if you would even meet the requirements for ROTP, or the minimum education requirements for RMC.
4.  I have two sons at RMC currently. The number of cadets with MP as trade is extremely low.  There have been a few cadets that currently have very good marks that have asked about switching to MP and have been informed that unable to or trade closed.
5. I constantly have a problem with individuals that even if they receive an offer from RMC will turn it down and not go. Have even more with a person that wants to police the military side and military situations and laws, yet does not under any circumstance want to gain insight experience and knowledge by actually being a part of and living it.
8. Although it may not be entirely true, it comes across as a person that wants to work the system, even in ways it was not designed or intended for their own selfish personal benefit.
9. They are also looking for leadership, community service, sport and physical, military potential, integrity etc.
10. Competition is extremely fierce.  If you look at the other blogs you will see numerous individuals who state very solid academics and other items that were not selected for one or more years.  The recruiting centre told us that they had over 5 thousand individuals apply last year for about 400 spots.  Over 1,500 individuals "merit listed".
11. There is as well the whole medical issue, and requirements for all trades. (eyesight etc)

I think, for good reason, this hasn't even factored into the conversation yet at this point.  There's nothing wrong with not wanting to go to RMC.  Not everybody's lifestyle permits it.  For example, a person with dependents may make an excellent CF officer, yet find RMC to be a poor match for their lifestyle.

RMC is not for everyone, and there's nothing wrong with people wanting to join the CF and not go there.  At least they make the decision to not waste everyone's time by going to a place they'll hate.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I think, for good reason, this hasn't even factored into the conversation yet at this point.  There's nothing wrong with not wanting to go to RMC.  Not everybody's lifestyle permits it.  For example, a person with dependents may make an excellent CF officer, yet find RMC to be a poor match for their lifestyle.

RMC is not for everyone, and there's nothing wrong with people wanting to join the CF and not go there.  At least they make the decision to not waste everyone's time by going to a place they'll hate.

True. This thread goes to show how important context and ones delivery can be.

 

[dcs]

RMC has married student quarters.  Lifestyle many not change significantly, or for certain periods of time not matter what stream one takes.

If it is this much of a concern, then give applying a lot of thought.

 

[mkil]

RMC has married student quarters.  Lifestyle many not change significantly, or for certain periods of time not matter what stream one takes.

If it is this much of a concern, then give applying a lot of thought.

I cannot find anywhere that says anything about married student quarters. Do you know of anyone who is married, with children who have went to RMC while living with their family? Curious to know. I am married with a two year old, and if my desired trade (nursing) was offered at RMC, I would have to turn it down because my son needs his mother. I don't think that one can judge my candidacy based on the fact that life circumstances do not permit me to accept an offer at RMC. I think sometimes it is hard for people to see that obligations and responsibilities outside of the forces are just as important as the ones inside. That is just my 2 cents.

 

[dcs]

When son gave us the tour, he showed us the buildings that contained married student housing.  I am not sure how it is allotted or requirements to secure.  There seemed to be quite a few. 

Talk to the recruiting centre or perhaps best to call RMC directly and discuss if this is a concern.

Absolutely agree that it is important for  children to be with their parents.  Just not sure that a military nurse or other will trade will not have a number of times where the demands and requirements simply do not allow.  Perhaps there are base hospitals that one can spend the vast majority of their military career. There may also be deployments required that would regretfully separate family even with quite young children.  My son knows of a number of officers that were not for example home for quite a number of important family occasions and times.

I think that deployment/family should be or already is discussed in other blogs.

 

[mariomike]

Do you know of anyone who is married, with children who have went to RMC while living with their family?

"Married OCdt at RMC":
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/94949.0

 

[jwtg]

RMC has married student quarters.  Lifestyle many not change significantly, or for certain periods of time not matter what stream one takes.

If it is this much of a concern, then give applying a lot of thought.

This is incorrect.  Please ensure your information is accurate before distributing it to people who may factor it in to their decision-making process.

The old Married Quarters to which you refer have been converted to office space and are now used for CDA HQ.  There are no married quarters on campus outside the Commandant's residence, which is occupied by the RMC Commandant and his family. 

When son gave us the tour, he showed us the buildings that contained married student housing.  I am not sure how it is allotted or requirements to secure.  There seemed to be quite a few. 

The quarters you refer to are those I have described above.  They are now offices and there are no alternative married-quarters. 

Talk to the recruiting centre or perhaps best to call RMC directly and discuss if this is a concern.

Don't bother asking your RC.  To be honest, most of the time at RMC we find out that the RCs deal with far to many other situations to be intimately familiar with the way things work at RMC, so they probably won't be able to help you with info regarding accommodations for married cadets.  Try talking to someone at RMC first.  That is the best source of info about RMC.

Absolutely agree that it is important for  children to be with their parents.  Just not sure that a military nurse or other will trade will not have a number of times where the demands and requirements simply do not allow.  Perhaps there are base hospitals that one can spend the vast majority of their military career. There may also be deployments required that would regretfully separate family even with quite young children.  My son knows of a number of officers that were not for example home for quite a number of important family occasions and times.

I think that deployment/family should be or already is discussed in other blogs.

Family separation is a reality for CF members entering via any route.  Your comparison of deployments to RMC is also a bit of a stretch.  Of course your family isn't going to join you in Afghanistan on your tour.  Being in Afghanistan for 6-9 months is very different than 4 years of university/military training in Kingston.  There are so many factors that make deployments different that studying that I won't insult your intelligence by listing them.

Your attitude towards people not wanting to attend RMC ignores context or lifestyles that are different than those of your children.  Unless you're prepared to say that we should not recruit married individuals, or individuals with children, then you have no right casting judgement on those who want to serve in the CF, but don't want to spend a whole 4 years separated from their loved ones. (EDIT: To clarify that, by loved ones, I refer to spouses/children.  Obviously there is a natural separation from parents/siblings when one embarks on a military career.  Separation from immediate family, however, is usually short-term in the grand scheme of things, for the sake of deployments/operations or particular courses, or short postings.)

We have a very small number of OCdts who are permitted to live off-campus with their families (aside from those in the UTPNCM program) and we also have a number of OCdts who would like to live off-campus with their spouses, but are not permitted to.  They continue to occupy quarters with the rest of the cadet wing.

The policy these days is that all OCdts live on-campus, anything else is an exception to the rule, and they are very few and far between.

If you have ANY QUESTIONS about RMC, please contact RMC directly (I believe there is a liaison office you can find on the RMC website), or PM me because I do go there and know a bit about how things work. 

If you think yo have ANY ANSWERS about RMC, like dcs does, then please be careful to verify your information before propagating misinformation.

Also, don't feel guilty if you want to join the CF and not go to RMC.  You are allowed to have that preference, and don't worry if other people can't get their mind around the fact that your lifestyle isn't the same as their 18 year old fresh-out-of-high school child who has no need to bring dependents with them.

[/rant]
I think this thread has journeyed sufficiently far away from it's original topic that it's about time it returns to it...whatever it was.

 

[OscarMike]

Reading through this entire thread is so very sad. If this idiot gets an ROTP position over some of the amazing applicants that we have in Canada, it will be a black day for the CF. All I can say to the OP is, please don't even bother applying. The CF does not need you, and it would be wrong for a person like you to take an ROTP position away from someone whose life aspiration is the honour and serve Canada.

Oh so now I'm an "idiot" for not wanting to live out the rest of my days in the Canadian Forces? Oh, I understand it now. You would rather have someone suffer for the next 40+ years until retirement without ever having the chance to fulfil their life dreams. Are you actually pathetic & naive enough to think, even for a second, that someone's aspirations are simply to serve in the military without a bigger picture? Have you even considered that long-term the Canadian Forces CANNOT offer me what I'm after in life other than an opportunity to build a foundation / stepping stone to achieve what what I'm after in life?

Shall I invoke the example of the Canadian soldier who committed suicide after being forced to redeploy for something like the third time?  The soldier obviously was not happy with his career path and didn't want to be there, but hey you know you guys would rather have someone be drive to the point of  suicide then be discharged. You're a disgusting narrow-minded individual and I hope I never have the unfortunate pleasure of you under my command because I would have a very real beef with you.

Furthermore yep definitely makes me not an amazing applicant because I'm not willing to give up my long-term goals and career aspirations simply to serve my country for the rest of my days. Let's cast aside that regardless of where I end up that I will always be serving my country. You do not need to be apart of the armed forces to serve your country and I dare say if you do not believe this then I kindly ask you to refrain from spewing uttermost bullshit and go get yourself educated.

 

[OscarMike]

While Brihard's opinion, specifically, may not be taken into consideration, it would not be wise to discount the opinions of other NCOs who will play roles in your selection and consequent success or failure at several stages in the recruiting and training phases. Should one NCO form such an opinion, you should anticipate others forming similar, if not identical, opinions.

The vast majority of us are rather dedicated to our chosen profession. Lower levels of dedication, and especially complete absences, are not highly regarded as you have discovered. That poorly-motivated (perceived or real) individuals may be in a position to influence members' lives and wellbeing to their detriment is not going to sit well with those members and that is what you are seeing here.

While I have pointed out that there is nothing wrong with doing as you propose, and that the system permits it, your lack of real interest lowers your desireability from a military viewpoint and competitiveness from a recruiting one.

The perceived tone of your posts also grates as others have pointed out.

Re-enlisting after your minimum period of service frankly does not constitute to being dedicated to chosen professions as your chosen profession, in this case Military Police, can be done outside of the military in the civilian worlds. Arguably, it is fallacious to suggest, even for a minute, that plans to not re-enlist constitutes to having lower levels of dedication and poor-motivation.

I'm curious to how no plans to do subsequent periods of service translates to having low levels of dedication & motivation. On the contrary I have a very real picture, from past experiences, of life in the military and I realise that it isn't for the faint of heart therefore would not waste my time or the times of others, e.g. recruiting, becoming part of the military when there are other pathways to my goals in life. I have real interest at this time but such interest does not coincide periods of service - point blank. This does not mean that, say 5 years, from now my plans will not change. I could very well keep re-enlisting for subsequent periods of service but at this time I doubt it.

Like I have said countless times for now I am completely motivated and dedicated in my initial minimum period of service. Anything subsequent periods of service will be taken into consideration based upon my experiences at that time and willingness to continue on.

 

[Teeps74]

Oh so now I'm an "idiot" for not wanting to live out the rest of my days in the Canadian Forces? Oh, I understand it now. You would rather have someone suffer for the next 40+ years until retirement without ever having the chance to fulfil their life dreams. Are you actually pathetic & naive enough to think, even for a second, that someone's aspirations are simply to serve in the military without a bigger picture? Have you even considered that long-term the Canadian Forces CANNOT offer me what I'm after in life other than an opportunity to build a foundation / stepping stone to achieve what what I'm after in life?

Shall I invoke the example of the Canadian soldier who committed suicide after being forced to redeploy for something like the third time?  The soldier obviously was not happy with his career path and didn't want to be there, but hey you know you guys would rather have someone be drive to the point of  suicide then be discharged. You're a disgusting narrow-minded individual and I hope I never have the unfortunate pleasure of you under my command because I would have a very real beef with you.

Furthermore yep definitely makes me not an amazing applicant because I'm not willing to give up my long-term goals and career aspirations simply to serve my country for the rest of my days. Let's cast aside that regardless of where I end up that I will always be serving my country. You do not need to be apart of the armed forces to serve your country and I dare say if you do not believe this then I kindly ask you to refrain from spewing uttermost bullshit and go get yourself educated.

Kid, you are barking up exactly the wrong tree. Re-examine what you want to do with your life, as, using the CF as a stepping stone is not for you... You are simply not cut out for it and you are certainly not officer material. I am not in fear of you ever commanding anything, as this attitude of yours here, will simply be too much of an obstacle for you on your BMOQ.

To drive the point home even deeper (as I imagine the finer points are already lost), you came here with your story. People reacted to your story. You got your back up and dug even deeper. Your lack of understanding for military ethos is something that I am unsure you will ever be able to over come... The CF is NOT about you and what the CF can do for YOU.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

24 hour lock
Bruce
army.ca staff