AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[Lumber]

I support it (our current situation in terms of destroyers and aupply ships is embarrassing) but, it seems the government ignored other options, at least one of which was lower prices for political expediency.

Even if we found a secret internal note or memo from the previous government's Cabinet that said "Hey we all know this is not the best deal but it will get us votes in Quebec" I would still be for it. We're too far along now; the Navy needs this capability.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

It's interesting to note that people in the NSPS office were never in favour of this.  I support it (our current situation in terms of destroyers and aupply ships is embarrassing) but, it seems the government ignored other options, at least one of which was lower prices for political expediency.  It also seems to me that the Conservatives set up a process that even the Liberals agree is good.  Perhaps we should remain committed to that process?  It will mean we don't have what we need for longer, but, if the money is transferred into the new ships instead, it may end up better...eventually.

Except we can't wait that long. We should actually get 2 of them, delay the Berlin class AOR's and finish the icebreakers first, then build the AOR's which by that time these interim ships will need to go in for a long term overhaul. Then you keep one in hot layup on each coast to cover off the AOR as they cycle through their regular refits. Plus you have some surge capacity.

 

[jmt18325]

Except we can't wait that long. We should actually get 2 of them, delay the Berlin class AOR's and finish the icebreakers first, then build the AOR's which by that time these interim ships will need to go in for a long term overhaul. Then you keep one in hot layup on each coast to cover off the AOR as they cycle through their regular refits. Plus you have some surge capacity.

I agree with you 100% - the problem, I suspect, as the minister has found out, is that the Conservatives over promised for their budget.  As the Liberals have committed to the same amount of money, and this was a new purchase...we have a problem.

 

[CougarKing]

More from the story posted by OBGR above:

The Liberals back to their old wicked tricks despite Justin's promise to fund the Navy.

"The more things change, the more they stay the same"
-Quark, Star Trek

CBC

Davie interim supply ship $700M deal delayed by Liberals
No supply ship would leave Canada unable to defend itself

By James Cudmore, CBC News Posted: Nov 20, 2015 5:34 AM ET Last Updated: Nov 20, 2015 8:11 AM ET

The new Liberal government is delaying approval of a deal to convert a civilian cargo ship into a badly needed military supply vessel, leading to concerns the plan will soon be scuttled and the navy will be left unable to properly defend Canada or deploy its force abroad.

Shipbuilder Chantier Davie had proposed a new-for-Canada plan to buy a cargo ship and turn it into an interim supply vessel able to support a Canadian naval task group at sea by providing fuel, food and ammunition.

The government signed a letter of intent earlier this year, and in October finalized a roughly $700-million, seven-year contract with Davie. The deal was dependent on cabinet approval, expected to flow out of a cabinet committee's meeting this week.

(...SNIPPED)

 

[Lumber]

Except we can't wait that long. We should actually get 2 of them, delay the Berlin class AOR's and finish the icebreakers first, then build the AOR's which by that time these interim ships will need to go in for a long term overhaul. Then you keep one in hot layup on each coast to cover off the AOR as they cycle through their regular refits. Plus you have some surge capacity.

:goodpost:

 

[NavyShooter]

700 million....refugee funding is purported over 800 million this FY (1.2 Billion total)....just about the same number.....coincidence?

*Not complaining about refugee support, just noting a similar amount of funds, and timing.  Call it a 'coincidence...?

 

[dimsum]

700 million....refugee funding is purported over 800 million this FY (1.2 Billion total)....just about the same number.....coincidence?

*Not complaining about refugee support, just noting a similar amount of funds, and timing.  Call it a 'coincidence...?

Call me cynical, but they needed to get that $ from somewhere.  Might as well be from the Navy that the LPC promised to build back up after years of CPC neglect.    :

 

[Edward Campbell]

The politics of shipbuilding in Canada have always overwhelmed the policy aspect (even, one can argue, during 1939/40/41 when we were, almost literally, fighting for our lives) and the operational requirements of the RCN and CCG are almost always at the bottom of the "considerations" list after partisan political, budgetary and policy concerns.

 

[Stoker]

Not really surprising as the Libs seem to be intent on reversing everything the Cons did. I'm a optimist and they are looking for a different option to get us a tanker quicker.

 

[George Wallace]

Not really surprising as the Libs seem to be intent on reversing everything the Cons did. I'm a optimist and they are looking for a different option to get us a tanker quicker.

Is a "Tanker" all that we need, or do we need more than just a "Tanker"?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Of course this would make sense if a deal for the Mistrials was still in the works. I don't believe Egypt has actually completed the deal.

 

[Spencer100]

Colin, I think its done.

Russia to Supply Equipment, Helicopters for Egyptian Mistral Ships

(Source: Sputnik News; published Oct 19, 2015)


NOVO-OGARYOVO --- Russia will supply equipment and helicopters worth over $1 billion for the Egyptian Mistral helicopter carriers, the Kremlin chief of staff said Monday.

Cairo and Paris signed a contract earlier this month for the purchase of two French-made Mistral-class helicopter carriers originally built for Russia.

"Russia will be, if you want, a sub-contractor, who will supply the missing equipment without which the Mistral warships are just a tin can. And of course, all the helicopters,” Sergei Ivanov said.

He added that the price of potential contracts would amount to over $1 billion.

Egypt emerged as France’s replacement customer for the Mistrals in September 2015, after Paris and Moscow formally terminated a 2011 deal on the construction and delivery of the two ships. In November 2014, France suspended the contract, claiming Moscow's alleged participation in the Ukrainian conflict.

Russia and France are expected to sign the final documents on the removal of radio-electronic systems from the Mistral-class helicopter carriers in early November.

-ends-

 

[Stoker]

Is a "Tanker" all that we need, or do we need more than just a "Tanker"?

No of course not but the greatest need right now is a tanker in my opinion.

 

[Spencer100]

All is unfolding to the Liberal dream.....no at sea supply.....no need for blue water....no need for expensive SCS....corvettes will do fine...

Mark my words....

 

[jollyjacktar]

:crickets:      From the Liberal drumbeaters of the election period era here in the forums.  Funny, that....

 

[jmt18325]

All is unfolding to the Liberal dream.....no at sea supply.....no need for blue water....no need for expensive SCS....corvettes will do fine...

Mark my words....

The promised exactly the opposite.  This deal would take money from the procurement budget...money that is in short supply.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

As we used to say in the Navy: Whisky - Whisky - Tango*

Davie has never offered that ship to the Navy. Canada would not be buying a ship modified into an AOR for $800 M.

Davie has offered to build the modified ship and lease it back to the Navy every year for the next five years at about $130 M. a year, crewed (at least for the non-military functions) after which either negotiate a new contract or the ship stays with Davie. There is a slightly higher lump payment at the beginning, which brings the overall price of the contract to the $800 M.

Now if anyone here tells me that its impossible to cover an increase of the CAF Operations budget by about $150 M. a year for the next five years, then we are in a very dire budgetary fix in Canada, and we shouldn't go about promising 14b$ + in aid to foreign countries.

*: Meaning for those who don't know: Whoah! Whoah! Taberna... !
 

 

[Edward Campbell]

I am, once again, going to give the new government, the new cabinet, the benefit of the doubt.

They have only been in office for two week; those two weeks have been dominated by "reading the (big, thick often very complex) briefing books" and what, I suspect, feels like being force fed information with a fire hose.

The PM has been away for a week or so, in Turkey and Manila, and, of course, Paris happened. But refugees dominate the agenda ... until climate change does.

In the midst of all that the Irving gang sent a letter ... the Irvings are important people and their various enterprises matter, too; one takes a pause when they raise a serious objection to something on the agenda.

It is my hope (and it is a valid COA in politics), and expectation, that cabinet will listen to all points of view, including, especially, those presented by their (newly met) senior officials. It seems to me that this deal, in so far as I understand it, is pretty good for the RCN, for Davie (of course) and for Canada ... maybe some good way(s) can be found to move forward and, if really necessary, alleviate Irving's concerns.

 

[Kirkhill]

WRT funding:

Maybe somebody could tell PMJT that the tanker/AOR/JSS is Infrastructure - and thus deficit financing is justified.

 

[The Bread Guy]

This from the Shipbuilding Association of Canada:

The Shipbuilding Association of Canada is surprised and disappointed by the reported delays in the signing of Davie Shipyard’s At-Sea Support Services contract by government.

Following the Harper government’s refusal to adopt the shipbuilding procurement strategy suggested by all Canadian shipbuilders in 2009 through the Shipbuilding Association of Canada (letter attached), to build large ships at large shipyards, small ships at small shipyards and so on, the Canadian naval and coastguard fleet renewal has failed to achieve any of its objectives in terms of schedule and value-for-money.

In 2012, the Canadian shipbuilding industry was reinvigorated by a series of multi-million dollar investments in Davie, Canada’s largest shipyard by a major British-owned marine group, which since then has spearheaded innovation in the domestic shipbuilding industry.

Davie’s Project Resolve is lean and innovative and leverages the best-practices adopted by our allied navies throughout the globe.

Following an exhaustive industry solicitation process and then months of deliberations by all the relevant governmental departments, Davie’s solution was selected as the only one which met the needs of the Royal Canadian Navy. After further months of negotiations and independent audits,

the agreement was concluded and is ready to sign.

There must be no further delays. The navy needs ships and Canada needs its navy. Now more than ever.