AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[MarkOttawa]

AlexanderM: The only actual RCN shipbuilding contract that has been signed is with Irving for the A/OPS; I very much doubt the Liberals would want to mess with that pretty warm and fuzzy project with but a 25mm gun.

On the other hand one wonders how much they will value the additional onshore expeditionary support capabilities the JSS have over the Davie AOR(s).  More CCG icebreakers for Seaspan instead?

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Pelorus]

Also, too bad we missed the Mistrals, that might of also been possible, who knows??

Too many defense commentators in Canada love to throw around the Mistrals as a prime example of what could have been if only the government did procurement via "common sense". 

Were the two Russian Mistrals extremely capable ships being sold for a fraction of their value due to political reasons?  Absolutely.  However, they were a class of ship that would have been great in a perfect world, where the RCN wasn't suffering from the multitude of other problems that affect every major decision that is made regarding our Navy.  Today's Navy as is stands is already stretched thin wrt budget, personnel in key positions, assets (ie. Maritime Helicopters) and a number of other minor problems that would have precluded their integration into the existing fleet of frigates.  Essentially, the addition of such a major asset would have caused more headaches than it solved.

It is similar in many ways to the recommendations to buy the two surplus Fast Supply Ships that the US had mothballed.  Again, great ships being sold for dirt cheap, but with a significantly higher operating cost (GT only operation) than we had at the time.  We could barely afford to put our own ships to sea for significant periods of time due to fuel costs.

 

[AlexanderM]

AlexanderM: The only actual RCN shipbuilding contract that has been signed is with Irving for the A/OPS; I very much doubt the Liberals would want to mess with that pretty warm and fuzzy project with but a 25mm gun.

On the other hand one wonders how much they will value the additional onshore expeditionary support capabilities the JSS have over the Davie AOR(s).  More CCG icebreakers for Seaspan instead?

Mark
Ottawa

Yes, I expect Irving will build the AOPS which is fine, but good news if that's all we're signed up for as there can now be options. Thanks!

 

[AlexanderM]

Too many defense commentators in Canada love to throw around the Mistrals as a prime example of what could have been if only the government did procurement via "common sense". 

Were the two Russian Mistrals extremely capable ships being sold for a fraction of their value due to political reasons?  Absolutely.  However, they were a class of ship that would have been great in a perfect world, where the RCN wasn't suffering from the multitude of other problems that affect every major decision that is made regarding our Navy.  Today's Navy as is stands is already stretched thin wrt budget, personnel in key positions, assets (ie. Maritime Helicopters) and a number of other minor problems that would have precluded their integration into the existing fleet of frigates.  Essentially, the addition of such a major asset would have caused more headaches than it solved.

It is similar in many ways to the recommendations to buy the two surplus Fast Supply Ships that the US had mothballed.  Again, great ships being sold for dirt cheap, but with a significantly higher operating cost (GT only operation) than we had at the time.  We could barely afford to put our own ships to sea for significant periods of time due to fuel costs.

I believe the Liberals have stated that they want to put money into the navy, less on fighters more on navy, so I expect these issues will get resolved through better funding.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Thanks, Bearpaw, but ..

Suppose I'm a very, very senior official, sitting just a few blocks from 101 Colonel By Drive (AKA Fort Fumble), and I call the CDS and say, "Jon, can you come and see me please, to discuss ships? Specifically, why can't you fellows have three or even four of the sorts of vessels Davie are converting so that we can divert the money from the big, Berlin class project to other ships? Please don't send an admiral and some over-educated analyst, Jon ... just you and me, "under four eyes," in words we can both understand, and that I can use, next week, with the new fellow." What should Gen Vance say? What are the minimum operational requirements? How close is Asterix to the 95% capable mark? (I'm thinking that the last 5% of performance/specification usually equals 20% of the cost.)

ER, it is the opinion in discussion in my section which includes a NavArc, who was on the JSS PMO at one point, that the Asterix will deliver most of what the Queenstowns will at a substancial savings in both time and money.  Especially if Davies delivers in 18 months and there is no reason why they can't.  Our money say's what will be, that if it all pans out, they'll do another Asterix part deux and JSS is going to be quietly shelved.

 

[Pelorus]

I believe the Liberals have stated that they want to put money into the navy, less on fighters more on navy, so I expect these issues will get resolved through better funding.

Unfortunately, some of our bigger problems (ie. having enough senior technicians to put a fleet to sea, most notably Cert 3 MSE types) cannot be solved by simply throwing money at the situation.  Having spoken with a lot of these guys, the problem runs much deeper into nebulous areas such as morale and overall job satisfaction.

These are by no means easy problems to solve.  It's going to take a lot of ingenuity to mitigate, especially once more platforms such as the AOPS come online.

 

[Kirkhill]

AlexanderM: The only actual RCN shipbuilding contract that has been signed is with Irving for the A/OPS; I very much doubt the Liberals would want to mess with that pretty warm and fuzzy project with but a 25mm gun.

On the other hand one wonders how much they will value the additional onshore expeditionary support capabilities the JSS have over the Davie AOR(s).  More CCG icebreakers for Seaspan instead?

Mark
Ottawa

Remember the Through-Deck Cruiser?  HMS Invincible?

Howabout the Casualty Ship? RFA Argus?

RFA ARGUS

The principal role of RFA Argus is to serve as a Primary Casualty Receiving Ship (PCRS). She has a fully equipped 100-bed medical complex on board, which can be uniquely tailored to deliver cutting-edge treatment afloat

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/our-organisation/the-fighting-arms/royal-fleet-auxiliary/casualty-ship/rfa-argus

Compare her to Bay Class

And you're too late on the Karel Doorman Alex. The Dutch kept her.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Through-deck destroyer?

http://thediplomat.com/2015/08/japan-launches-new-helicopter-destroyer/

Mark
Ottawa

 

[jmt18325]

Just to correct from something said earlier - according to project resolve website, the ship will carry a large hospital.

 

[Edward Campbell]

ER, it is the opinion in discussion in my section which includes a NavArc, who was on the JSS PMO at one point, that the Asterix will deliver most of what the Queenstowns will at a substancial savings in both time and money.  Especially if Davies delivers in 18 months and there is no reason why they can't.  Our money say's what will be, that if it all pans out, they'll do another Asterix part deux and JSS is going to be quietly shelved.

Thanks for that, JJT ~ it confirms what I heard from another old retired, Navy four striper, who heard it in the wardroom bar ... from whence all useful info flows.

There is a rumour floating about the at least one or two of Prime Minister designate Trudeau's advisors want to take some quick action on something that smells a bit like 1) a decision on new ships for the RCN, after years of procrastination; and 2) job creation. The gist of the rumour is that if the Asterix/Project Resolve; ship meets "most" (whatever that is) of the Navy's requirements then it, plus one or two more, will be built, in Quebec, and other contracts will be announced in other yards, too. But the aim is to get people cutting steel, and to be seen to be cutting steel, very soon.

Edit: grammar  :-[

 

[donaldk]

Overall Davie pulled an excellent maneuver for coming up with Project Resolve - 18 months versus 7 years just to get some of our beloved RAS capability back.  Will be interesting to see what ISSC arrangement will come out of it if (*cough* when *cough*) the government decides to purchase an Asterix or two at the end of the lease agreement.

The real fun begins once Parliament reconvenes in December  ;D -  How I foresee it:

*ding* *dong* Ladies and Gentlemen, in preparation for take off, please stow your luggage under the seat in front or in the overhead bin, ensure your tray table is fastened, seat is in the upright position, and fasten your seat belts.  We're in for one helluva ride!

P.S.  News on who is getting the upcoming disposal contract for the old tankers/280s should be coming forth within the next couple months...  whenever legal is finished with it.  That is all.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I'm still looking for guidance ...

If the Berlin is, say, the Mercedes Benz C Class of AORs, meaning top of the line but not the very, very best, then what is the Asterix/Project Resolve ship? Is it a Chevrolet Cruze, providing basic but "good enough" service for a smallish middle class family navy? In other words, is it an acceptable AOR for, say 95% of the RCN's requirements over the next 25+ years?

New question: what about the UK's RFA model? Is there, given the personnel problems some of you have mentioned, some advantage in using civil service sailors, rather then RCN members, to crew the tankers? I know that we've never done it, but the Brits have, including, in the 1980s, in battle ...

 

[jollyjacktar]

ER. In my opinion, it might not be a Benz but it is a luxury classed car nonetheless.  Say maybe a couple of steps down. 

Again, we were discussing the merits or not of a RFA type option in the office, after all we do have civilian sailors already manning our auxillary fleet (tugs, barges, Quest) as yes, the RFA Wave class are (mostly) all over the place.  The difference between how we use our AOR's and the other guys is that we take ours into high risk areas such as the Straights of Hormuse and do boardings and the like.  We, have the unlimited liability clause as a matter of fact, our civilians don't.

 

[Kirkhill]

ER. In my opinion, it might not be a Benz but it is a luxury classed car nonetheless.  Say maybe a couple of steps down. 

Again, we were discussing the merits or not of a RFA type option in the office, after all we do have civilian sailors already manning our auxillary fleet (tugs, barges, Quest) as yes, the RFA Wave class are (mostly) all over the place.  The difference between how we use our AOR's and the other guys is that we take ours into high risk areas such as the Straights of Hormuse and do boardings and the like.  We, have the unlimited liability clause as a matter of fact, our civilians don't.

But I believe the RFA Civilians do.

Your place in the team
Although you’ll be working alongside the
Royal Navy, you won’t actually be joining
them. In fact, the Royal Fleet Auxiliary
is part of the UK Merchant Navy, which
means you will stay a civilian.

Of course, serving with the Royal Fleet
Auxiliary is a bit different from serving on a
cruise ship or an oil tanker.  By keeping the
Royal Navy supplied and operational, you’ll
have a vital role in Britain’s defence and
humanitarian activities around the world.
This could mean serving in hostile waters
or regions that have suffered a major
natural or man-made disaster. To prepare
you for this, you’ll begin your career with
us in Royal Navy training bases, learning
specialist technical and military skills you
wouldn’t develop in other Merchant
Navy jobs. You’ll also earn qualifications
accredited by the Maritime & Coastguard
Agency (MCA), which will be recognised
throughout the UK shipping industry.
On many Royal Fleet Auxiliary ships, your
crewmates will include Royal Navy or Royal
Marines personnel, such as Air Engineering
Technicians looking after your ship’s
helicopters. As a civilian, though, you’ll
have to keep to Royal Fleet Auxiliary codes
of conduct, rather than military ones.

A unique purpose…

In the Royal Fleet Auxiliary, you’ll be
working with two main groups of people.
The Royal Navy will look to you to supply
and repair their warships away from home
ports and provide training facilities for
ratings and officers. Meanwhile, the
Royal Marines Commandos and the Army
will rely on you to provide them with a
floating base for their operations on shore.
Our ships are all specially designed and
equipped to carry out these crucial tasks.
You’ll serve on one of the ships in the
Royal Fleet Auxiliary fleet, which currently
has six fleet and support tankers, two
dry-cargo fleet replenishment ships, two
combined fuel and stores replenishment
ships, four landing ships, one aviation
training ship and one forward repair ship.
Almost all our ships have large flight
decks and hangars, so they can land and
carry helicopters. We use helicopters to
carry loads out to warships as part of our
supply work. Sometimes, though, you’ll
have Royal Navy anti-submarine helicopters
on board with you, or detachments of
Royal Marines Commandos or Army troops
being airlifted into action.

…and identity

You can tell Royal Fleet Auxiliary ships from
Royal Navy warships by their grey paint
and the Royal Fleet Auxiliary flag, the blue
ensign. This is a blue flag with the Union
Jack in the top-left corner and an upright
gold anchor in the centre. Royal Navy ships
fly the white ensign, while other British
Merchant Navy ships fly the red ensig

Q: What happens if I find myself in a
war zone?

A: As a member of the Royal Fleet
Auxiliary, you’re also a special member
of the Royal Naval Reserve (RNR). In a
combat situation, this special status is
activated, so you gain reservist status
and are protected by the Geneva
Convention.

http://c69011.r11.cf3.rackcdn.com/63a223b946c1458d9981deea2b6d456b-0x0.pdf

 

[Edward Campbell]

ER. In my opinion, it might not be a Benz but it is a luxury classed car nonetheless.  Say maybe a couple of steps down. 

Again, we were discussing the merits or not of a RFA type option in the office, after all we do have civilian sailors already manning our auxillary fleet (tugs, barges, Quest) as yes, the RFA Wave class are (mostly) all over the place.  The difference between how we use our AOR's and the other guys is that we take ours into high risk areas such as the Straights of Hormuse and do boardings and the like.  We, have the unlimited liability clause as a matter of fact, our civilians don't.

                    The (chartered) Atlantic Conveyor                                and          the RFA Sir Galahad were both sunk by enemy fire in
                    the Falklands War ... and, we sent plenty of civilians into harm's way in ships in the last Big war ...

                    ... they were (relatively, especially viz-a-viz, the Navy) well paid and their TOS were not the same as RCN sailors but they died anyway ...

 

[jollyjacktar]

Thank you Chris and ER, you did beat me to it with those examples. 

I don't know how often the RFA find themselves conducting RAS in hostile waters since that time (82) as I've only run into them operating down south.  But the other kids normally keep their combat support vessels back from operating in places such as the SoH and have the combatants go out of the box to RAS.  We on the other hand were willing to go in and as such were regularly requested to come into the box and RAS.

Our Auxiliary chaps with the exception of Quest normally stick to the home port.  I don't know if having a clause such as you point out Chris to default to the RNR would fly or if it's not already there buried in their TOS.  :dunno:

 

[Colin Parkinson]

If the Davie contracts pans out, they could get 2 ships built over the next 3 or so years, delay the Queenston's and get the icebreakers done, then proceed on the Queenstons, which by the time they are ready the Davie ships will need a good refit. I hear that the naval tugfleet is getting long in the tooth and may be to small for some of the ships proposed?

 

[jollyjacktar]

Yeah, the tugs are saber toothed as well.

 

[FSTO]

If the Davie contracts pans out, they could get 2 ships built over the next 3 or so years, delay the Queenston's and get the icebreakers done, then proceed on the Queenstons, which by the time they are ready the Davie ships will need a good refit. I hear that the naval tugfleet is getting long in the tooth and may be to small for some of the ships proposed?

Yes on both counts.
Tugs are not glamourous but they are critical. You would think it would be easy to get replacement tugs, but this is Canada remember.

 

[Furniture]

The difference between how we use our AOR's and the other guys is that we take ours into high risk areas such as the Straights of Hormuse and do boardings and the like.  We, have the unlimited liability clause as a matter of fact, our civilians don't.

I wonder if we used our tankers for boarding’s and such because we thought they were an appropriate platform for the job, or if we did it because we were low on warships to do the job?

Would it not make more sense to use a RFA model with Resolve class axillary boats pumping gas, and the saved money used to buy an extra CSC/AOPS to carry the boarding parties?