AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[Monsoon]

Some visual differences from the image of the Berlin displayed from the Navy Technology site to the ones above are : only one large crane, an addition of 2 landing craft (not sure of the size), a different RAS rigs configuration, and other minor things like life boats etc. I'm sure there's been some tweeking of the original design but most of it I suspect would be in the controls, coms, and radars. From what I've been able to read it is a much more capable ship than the Aegir26 offered by BMT.

There also apear to be CWIS mounts fore and aft, presumably to replace the need for the 27mm guns and the guys-running-around-on-deck-with-Stingers point air defence on the original.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Hmm well I suppose this is one way to deal with timelines..........

Not sure how it's going to help them build up capacity to design their own.

   
Inside China: Carrier’s engineers worked to death


At least 15 Chinese were worked to death in response to leaders' orders to finish refurbishing the Liaoning, China's first aircraft carrier. A senior military engineer revealed the deaths in noting that the work was finished far ahead of schedule.

Wang Zhiguo, a systems engineer for the Liaoning project, disclosed the deaths in discussing statistics on the refurbishment in the May 31 online edition of China Youth Daily.

"The refurbishing project involved too much work to be done and we were given a very tight deadline, which caused the deaths of my colleagues," Mr. Wang said, expressing anguish over the loss.

He elaborated that the order came from Beijing that the carrier must be rebuilt in 30 months. But the home port for the carrier's Ukraine-built shell was at Dalian in frigid northeastern China.

"We encountered the coldest freeze in 50 years, and many civic engineering projects involving the refurbishment were greatly affected by the cold weather, wasting a lot of time," Mr. Wang said.

In the end, political leaders in Beijing refused to yield on extending the deadline, and all work was completed in 15 months.

The Liaoning was commissioned in September. Top leaders, including President Hu Jintao, attended the event and delivered commissar-style speeches.

The Liaoning was left to conduct tests and repairs. On Nov. 25, Luo Yang, the 51-year-old project manager in charge of the Liaoning's aviation capability, had a massive heart attack aboard the ship and died soon afterward. The Chinese Communist Party Central Committee made Mr. Luo a national martyr and a model worker to be emulated.

No other deaths resulting from excessive work were announced before Mr. Wang's interview.

China is known for making draconian demands on its people to achieve political objectives.

The most infamous was Mao Zedong's "great leap forward" during the late 1950s, when Mao demanded that the entire nation catch up to levels of industrial output with Great Britain within 15 years. As a result, at least 35 million people starved to death as the result of a man-made famine.

Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jun/13/inside-china-carriers-engineers-worked-to-death/#ixzz2WDClOmzr
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter

 

[jollyjacktar]

Not too much fear of Irving's workers being worked to death (speed-wise) to successfully meet and deliver a ship to a customer...

 

[MilEME09]

Not too much fear of Irving's workers being worked to death (speed-wise) to successfully meet and deliver a ship to a customer...

instead they will be delivered late and over budget..........

 

[George Wallace]

instead they will be delivered late and over budget..........

Historically, you are correct. 

The Government should adopt some of the methods of contract writing some organizations are now writing.  If you complete project early, you earn a bonus; and if you complete the project late, you are 'fined' for the overtime.  This may make our contractors a little more 'fiscally responsible' in fulfilling the projects they have been awarded.

 

[Monsoon]

Historically, you are correct. 

What history are you referring to? The last ships built for the navy from scratch were delivered early and under budget (by Irving).

What we seem to have trouble with are "Canadianizations" of existing platforms (like subs and Cyclones).

 

[NavyShooter]

I took a ship into ISL for a docking work period in 2007.

We had 3 of 4 DG's functioning, but needing maintenance.  Somehow, if memory serves me correctly, we came out with 1 functioning in emergency run only.

They also let our HMS transducer freeze....damaged just shy of 10% of the array....the fiber-optic cable that took 4 months to fix after they broke it (and actually admitted to it!)

I have faith that the ships built at ISI will continue to be completed to such an outstanding standard as this, and that we'll take them....regardless of the condition, and try to fix them ourselves instead of demanding that they be made right.

Just my thoughts.

NS

 

[Stoker]

What history are you referring to? The last ships built for the navy from scratch were delivered early and under budget (by Irving).

What we seem to have trouble with are "Canadianizations" of existing platforms (like subs and Cyclones).

I know the KINGSTON class (HMCS KINGSTON) on acceptance trials had a significant part of the propulsion control system jumpered out for it to work. In fact many systems still didn't work right several years later.

 

[jollyjacktar]

I've been on several ships that have come out of Irving's refits.  My current one was delayed by months and we had the TP in Jan.  Things like discovering a three inch stud inserted into the BW piping (not an accident), expandable foam put into scuppers so drains won't work (not an accident) valves put in backwards, or the guts taken out, I could go on but I won't. 

We don't sail until the Fall for RRI, now to be fair, some of the work delay is the result of the LM and L3 portions of the FELEX.  But I have always been and continue to remain totally underwhelmed by Irving and their work.  It's only the hatchet job that Port Weller did on ATH that makes Irving look like a first class yard by comparison.  They are allowed to get away with shoddy work time and time again.  They are never held to account.  I'm just tickled pink that they're using a great hunk of the tax dollars that Dexter threw at them to build a parking garage.  Yup, lots of ship related work there  :

 

[Edward Campbell]

And here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Edmonton Sun, is a report on the scheduling problems:

http://www.edmontonsun.com/2013/06/22/canadas-navy-not-shipshape

Canada's navy not shipshape

BY SIMON KENT, TORONTO SUN

FIRST POSTED: SATURDAY, JUNE 22, 2013

TORONTO - Ready, set, don’t do anything.

A fortnight ago the federal government announced it was a step closer to finalizing a multi-billion-dollar deal for two new Royal Canadian Navy supply ships.

The vessels will be built at a North Vancouver shipyard and based on an existing German design.

The choice of the 20,000-ton Berlin-class marks the latest step in a plodding selection process that began back in 2004.

Since then there have been proposals and counter-proposals for a Joint Supply Ship (JSS) that was initially to be designed locally.

Three JSS vessels were envisioned, with a contract to be awarded in 2008, the maiden ship delivered in 2012 and the project completed in 2016.

The government allocated $2.1 billion to design, develop and acquire the trio.

In 2009, however, Ottawa found that the three ships would not fit within the initial $2.1 billion budget estimate. In response, the number of ships was reduced to two, delivery dates pushed out (again) and requirements changed.

The new budget was set at $2.6 billion in fixed nominal dollars. Now some critics see the final cost doubling due to cumulative delays in design selection.

Nobody should expect the designated builder Seaspan Marine Corp. to start cutting steel for the project anytime soon.

Before any work can begin, the Berlin-class design must be optimized for Seaspan’s specific yard and, because the shipyard’s current upgrade work is only about 25% done, it will still be several years at least before the first keel is laid. Once construction begins, it will take about 36 months to build the first ship.

There is also one other problem to solve.

A decision is needed on whether or not the Coast Guard’s long-planned new polar icebreaker will be built first at the same site.

The icebreaker CCGS Louis S. St-Laurent is set to retire in 2017, and will be replaced by a new Polar class icebreaker CCGS John G. Diefenbaker.

Meanwhile, the two RCN ships the new class will replace just keep getting older.

Both HMCS Protecteur and HMCS Preserver will be 50 years old (at least) by the time they head for the breakers. That would qualify them for museum status in most countries around the world.

During their lifetime they have contributed to the 1991 Gulf War and humanitarian aid missions in Florida and the Bahamas, peace-making off Somalia and East Timor and have been poised for the evacuation of non-combatants from Haiti.

The ships are also single-hulled which is in contravention of most international environmental standards and limits the number of ports that will accept them.

The RCN is acutely aware of operational limitations and is busy talking up the project.

National Defence and the Canadian Forces say that the new Berlin-class ships should “provide a home base for maintenance and operation of helicopters, a limited sealift capability, and support to forces deployed ashore.”

Vice-Admiral Paul Maddison, the now-retired commander of the Royal Canadian Navy, told a defence industry conference in Ottawa that the design had been selected “following a thorough, third-party-validated process, during which two designs were compared in depth based on capability, cost and risk.”

Clearly he is a fan but at some stage a keel will need to be laid and works begin. Even the most optimistic naval planner admits Ottawa is still years away from signing a detailed build contract.

Then there is the rest of the RCN fleet.

Canada’s Iroquois-class destroyers, our principal naval warships, are on average 40 years old. They are due for retirement/replacement.

The Halifax-class frigates are due for retirement/replacement starting in 2025.

Therefore, just to maintain the navy at its present operational capacity, Canada needs to build 15 new warships while completing the support ships and rebuilding the Coast Guard’s fleet of icebreakers at a time when the world is turning its attention to increasing sea traffic through the Northwest Passage.

Clearly the time for talking has ended. It remains to be seen if Ottawa is ready to stop talking and start building.

It may be clear to Simon Kent that " the time for talking has ended" and it is time to "start building," but, as he suggests, Ottawa is a lot better at talking than doing. Finance Minister Flaherty's top priority is balancing the budget in time for the 2015 general election. As we have all noted elsewhere, absent increased revenues (renewed economic growth or higher taxes), the only way to balance a budget is to delay even necessary spending.

 

[chrisf]

The CCGS Louis S St. Laurent is already officially going to be around longer than 2017... no new official date, but they've stopped saying 2017... she'll be pushing 60 at least when she's done.

 

[Kirkhill]

It may indeed be time to start building.... but where and with what?

As Kent notes first we have to build the yards.....


Venice built her Arsenal before she built her fleet.
Henry VIII built his dockyards before the RN.

Movement is happening.  Pugh's wheel is turning. Progress is being made.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Movement is happening.  Pugh's wheel is turning. Progress is being made.

You could have fooled me.  At least from the vantage point I've been viewing from the past 14 years.

 

[ironduke57]

Well TKMS would probably be happy to build one or both JSS for you. 

Regards,
ironduke57 ;D

 

[a_majoor]

A bit of a tangent, but Japan is building new "helicopter destroyers". The interesting part in the stats is the number of troops and vehicles that can be deployed aboard, and ferried ashore via helicopter. Rearranging the interior would probably allow the ship to be used as a LHD, and a very fast thinking and acting government *could* attempt to join the program while the ships are being built in order to achieve economies of scale and perhaps receprocity from Japan in other military, commercial or diplomatic ventures...

This ship is a large step beyond the  Hyūga-class helicopter destroyers:

http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/08/japan-has-unveiled-its-helicopter.html

Japan has unveiled its helicopter aircraft carrier and continues an Aircraft carrier arms race in the Pacific

Japan on Tuesday unveiled its biggest warship since World War II, a huge flat-top destroyer that has raised eyebrows in China and elsewhere because it bears a strong resemblance to a conventional aircraft carrier.

JDS Izumo (DDH-183) is a helicopter carrier (officially classified by Japan as a helicopter destroyer) and the lead ship in the Izumo-class of the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force.

Though able to carry up to 14 helicopters, critics including China argue it could be modified to use as a more standard aircraft carrier.

It has the following displacement and length

19,500 long tons (19,800 t) standard
27,000 long tons (27,000 t) full load
248 meters long (814 ft)

It has helicopters now but it would be relatively easy to get vertical take off jets. The US would love to sell Japan some F35Bs.

For other operations, 400 troops and fifty 3.5 ton trucks (or equivalent equipment) can also be carried.

It cost 113.9 billion yen (for construction of first unit to date). The second helicopter carrier will be done in 2015. Each of the ships then takes two years to fully commission.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Would be great and be excellent forward thinking, I agree. 

But, as I stated a couple of years ago on this topic, during a town hall meeting with the Admiral I put it to him as to why we didn't snap up one of the Bay class vessels being virtually given away by the UK as they'd be perfect for humanitarian missions such as Katrina, Haiti etc.  He said that we had bigger fish to fry and get on line such as AOPS and AOR replacements.  Maybe some day we could think about it and at any rate the EU is broke and will be selling off family heirlooms one day and we could go to the estate sale then.  Hell, right now we are having a hard time budgeting for fuel.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I wonder if they would lease us a support ship till ours get finished?

 

[Kirkhill]

You could probably lease the services of the RFA entire.

 

[Kirkhill]

New Stuff.

The Dutch are flogging the ship we wanted to build 20 years ago - The Karel Doormann - a combination of AOR and LPH.

The way I see it this is a threefer.

1 - Cheap and Immediate AOR

2 - Cheap and Immediate BHS

3 - Allows Icebreaker to move up the production line

Canada to buy it, sell it to Washington Marine and lease it back with In Service Support.

Defence to Sell Off Biggest Navy Ship Before It Is Finished


(Source: Dutch News; published September 5, 2013)
 


THE HAGUE --- The defence ministry has to find over 300 million euros of extra savings. The Dutch navy's biggest vessel, currently being built n Vlissingen will be sold before it is commissioned, Trouw newspaper reported Wednesday.

The scrapping of the logistics support ship, which was to be the biggest and tallest ship in the Dutch navy, is part of a 330 million euro pruning operation, according to the paper. Where the navy gives up a ship, an entire battalion will be scrapped in the army.

The air force will also have to make do with six or seven fewer F16 fighter aircraft. At the same time, the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) aircraft is being chosen as the successor to this fleet. The number of JSFs will depend on the price. A ceiling of 4 billion euros will apply to the total order.

These measures, to be announced on Prince's Day (17 September), are on top of the 1 billion euros in cutbacks that Defence had already been saddled with earlier. As part of this, 12,000 jobs will be lost, mostly in the higher echelons.

According to Trouw, while the Karel Doorman (which will cost over 400 million euros), is being sold, at the same time, a new but smaller and cheaper supply ship will be built. HMS Amsterdam (commissioned in 1995), now sailing in the Caribbean, will also have to remain in service longer than planned.

The navy will also have to sacrifice a company, which involves 180 to 200 people. Which battalion will be scrapped is not yet clear. It could be one of the four armoured infantry battalions, possibly one of the two stationed in Havelte.

The scrapping of a battalion costs between 600 and 650 jobs. Additionally, the pruning of support services is to yield savings of 40 million euros.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/147732/dutch-to-sell-off-biggest-ship-in-latest-round-of-budget-cuts.html

 

[ringo]

Canada would be wise to snap this ship up, HMCS Vimy Ridge or HMCS Juno Beach perhaps?