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dapaterson said:
Don't the Dutch have the Iltis in or at one in their inventory?
AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
- Thread starter Ex-Dragoon
- Start date
Don't the Dutch have the Iltis in or at one in their inventory?
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Yes. I'm just afraid someone from DND wll look at the picture, think it's a good idea, and after typical confusion forward it to the Army vice the Navy for action and we'll see the Iltis back in service instead of a JSS-type ship!
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Maybe someone at Damen thinks they can sell the design to Canada and that's the reason they put the Iltis (they just forgot you guys also use the G-wagon nowadays ;D) and the Cyclone in.
For the Dutch is should be the G-wagon (the Dutch never even used the Iltis unlike the Canadians) and the NH-90.
For the Dutch is should be the G-wagon (the Dutch never even used the Iltis unlike the Canadians) and the NH-90.
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I say we would be better off skipping the JSS concept all together and going straight to an dedicated AOR. Less mess and fuss and we'll get hulls sooner rather then later.
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Ex-D- that makes too much sense.
In fact, there will certainly be major budget cuts to defence that will occur after the G-20 summitt. In order to deal with the deficits and sustain an army looking to refresh its worn out kit, I would wager that none of these high cost naval projects [JSS, AOR, Destroyers] will proceed. Politically, the government is now in a position where it can leverage the high costs vs the deficit and forever entrench a minimal capability territorial Navy. Such a Navy will have little need for air defence, tanker support or expeditionary support.
Even then, barring the unforseen appearance of pirates equipped with cruise missiles in Hudsons Bay or the Queen Charlottes, look for a Navy severely different in composition than it is today.
In fact, there will certainly be major budget cuts to defence that will occur after the G-20 summitt. In order to deal with the deficits and sustain an army looking to refresh its worn out kit, I would wager that none of these high cost naval projects [JSS, AOR, Destroyers] will proceed. Politically, the government is now in a position where it can leverage the high costs vs the deficit and forever entrench a minimal capability territorial Navy. Such a Navy will have little need for air defence, tanker support or expeditionary support.
Even then, barring the unforseen appearance of pirates equipped with cruise missiles in Hudsons Bay or the Queen Charlottes, look for a Navy severely different in composition than it is today.
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Post at The Torch:
More on new Dutch version of Joint Support Ship
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2010/01/more-on-new-dutch-version-of-joint.html
Mark
Ottawa
More on new Dutch version of Joint Support Ship
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2010/01/more-on-new-dutch-version-of-joint.html
Mark
Ottawa
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Lost in the tornado of news from Haiti is a simple truth
To move lots of stuff painted Green you need a JSS ship (s) and we can't do that yet nor get it inland quick. I think its time to get that long lead time capability back into the pipeline.
We have an earthquake zone in Vancouver,for example, thats a ba$tard to drive around in - has few routes to move on and lots of people who'll look just like you know where - living in the street on a rainy night.
Even if we flew the C17s to Vancouver - they'll be at the wrong end of town to assist assuming the routes are open - and the path of the government is pull military from the west to the east (3 PPCLI-1CER are good examples) and replace them with mounties driving cruisers. Last I checked that 5900 constables are on the job there --- seen the numbers on RCMP Website and this wikipedia link looks the same http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RCMP_%22E%22_Division. Buffalo taxi trunks are full of other stuff than IRPs...
And even worse - JSS may be great on the east coast but not nec a part of the solution for the west coast.
City governments everywhere - review your disaster plans.
Ring ring ring ---- Col - its a Mr Lastman on the line? Sir - he won`t take "cough and die" for an answer and says he wants to speak to the MFWIC.
RCMP pers in BC 9200 plus
http://bc.rcmp.ca/ViewPage.action?siteNodeId=38&languageId=1&contentId=9114&q=strength
To move lots of stuff painted Green you need a JSS ship (s) and we can't do that yet nor get it inland quick. I think its time to get that long lead time capability back into the pipeline.
We have an earthquake zone in Vancouver,for example, thats a ba$tard to drive around in - has few routes to move on and lots of people who'll look just like you know where - living in the street on a rainy night.
Even if we flew the C17s to Vancouver - they'll be at the wrong end of town to assist assuming the routes are open - and the path of the government is pull military from the west to the east (3 PPCLI-1CER are good examples) and replace them with mounties driving cruisers. Last I checked that 5900 constables are on the job there --- seen the numbers on RCMP Website and this wikipedia link looks the same http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RCMP_%22E%22_Division. Buffalo taxi trunks are full of other stuff than IRPs...
And even worse - JSS may be great on the east coast but not nec a part of the solution for the west coast.
City governments everywhere - review your disaster plans.
Ring ring ring ---- Col - its a Mr Lastman on the line? Sir - he won`t take "cough and die" for an answer and says he wants to speak to the MFWIC.
RCMP pers in BC 9200 plus
http://bc.rcmp.ca/ViewPage.action?siteNodeId=38&languageId=1&contentId=9114&q=strength
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
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Like it or not the first responder to an major earthquake that effects mainly the Vancouver area will be Ft lewis. The Americans will pour in large amounts of troops and material to help us.
Plus their navy and Airforce will be busy helping us as well. However if an earthquake was to devastate Seattle and Vancouver, we would on our own.
Plus their navy and Airforce will be busy helping us as well. However if an earthquake was to devastate Seattle and Vancouver, we would on our own.
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yeah i read about a hypothetical senario like that in one of J.L Granastein's books
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54/102
I think RH was right and you are partly right. We need the BHS, preferably multiple. We don't need the JSS and I don't think the Navy needs the JSS either.
The Navy needs an AOR or three. The Canadian Government needs some cheap floating warehouses to preposition materiel to respond to natural and "man-made" (pace hizzzobaminess) disasters. Warehouse transit by Naval Reserve crews of 25, comparable to civilian vessels.
I think RH was right and you are partly right. We need the BHS, preferably multiple. We don't need the JSS and I don't think the Navy needs the JSS either.
The Navy needs an AOR or three. The Canadian Government needs some cheap floating warehouses to preposition materiel to respond to natural and "man-made" (pace hizzzobaminess) disasters. Warehouse transit by Naval Reserve crews of 25, comparable to civilian vessels.
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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We don't have the budget to warehouse equipment. We don't even have the budget for equipment in enough numbers to train with.
So, not having a budget to warehouse equipment, where would we get the budget to build ships to warehouse the equipment we can't afford?
So, not having a budget to warehouse equipment, where would we get the budget to build ships to warehouse the equipment we can't afford?
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I do hope and pray the JSS goes away and someone with a clue or two in Ottawa wakes TFU and gets the Navy AORs; Berlin class anyone?
A
aesop081
Guest
WRT to JSS, Hillier is as wrong today as he was then.
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George Wallace said:
No. CF doesn't have the budget to warehouse equipment. And the Canadian Taxpayer wouldn't pay for the budget necessary to do the job for the CF. That's why I said the Canadian Government needs the kit and the ships. Add it to Foreign Affairs budget or CIDA - with some management changes.
Beans, Bullets, Bandages and POL. Leave the Bullets, Personnel and AFVs to the Air Force - perhaps one fast military standard BHS for the Navy as well. But the rest, along with kit for a Sigs Sqn and a Service Battalion - park that on one of those surplus ships sitting around the world's oceans just now. Or, if their feeling well heeled get the Ccandian shipbuilding industry to put out CSL grade vessels.
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Hi
Thanks for commenting - I guess I mean "capability" to move Green painted stuff
As for stocking in Canada - its all about redundancy and operational research - as in what are the odds.....
As well - for people to keep extra food on the shelf for the unforeseen.
A good thinking cap ex and well done to all
As for budgets - Its all politics - the dough pi$$ed down endless ratholes would float a major fleet of something.
PS: Anyone living in the world of "never will" or "never can" - come in now
Thanks for commenting - I guess I mean "capability" to move Green painted stuff
As for stocking in Canada - its all about redundancy and operational research - as in what are the odds.....
As well - for people to keep extra food on the shelf for the unforeseen.
A good thinking cap ex and well done to all
As for budgets - Its all politics - the dough pi$$ed down endless ratholes would float a major fleet of something.
PS: Anyone living in the world of "never will" or "never can" - come in now
Dutch Order Multi-Purpose Support Ship
20-Jan-2010
Article Link
Damen Schelde recently announced a contract from the Dutch Defence Materiel Organisation to build a 28,000t “Joint Logistic Support Ship” (JSS), which is scheduled to launch in 2014 and replace the existing 16,900t HNLMS Zuiderkruis.
The Dutch want a very versatile ship that can resupply other warships, transport significant numbers of army equipment and vehicles, act as a floating headquarters, take on hospital duties, and embark up to 6 helicopters. Price was not disclosed, but that level of versatility will come with costs. Canada’s ill-fated JSS program had similar or larger ambitions, but the 3-ship, C$ 2.9 billion program was ultimately suspended when contractors informed the government that they could not supply what Canada wanted at the prices demanded. With respect to the Dutch design…
The Dutch JSS design measures 205m/ 672’6” long with 30m/ 98’5” beam, and 28,000t total displacement, offering much more space compared to the 190m length, 20m beam, and 16,900t for HNLMS Zuiderkruis. Power will come from 5 diesel generators offering up to 25 MW, and speeds of up to 18 knots will be achieved using 2 main electric motors of 9 MW each, driving 2 fixed-pitch propeller shaftlines, 2 bow thruster pods, and 1 stern thruster pod.
In order to fulfill its main supply role, the Dutch JSS will have 2 Replenishment-At-Sea masts, an elevator and crane for up to 40 tonnes, a large (“2000 lanemeters”) vehicle storage or evacuee holding area with roll on/roll off capability, and a “steel beach” stern design for cargo transfer via landing craft. A large helicopter deck can handle up to 2 CH-47 Chinook heavy-lift helicopters, and the hangar will be able to hold up to 6 helicopters of undefined type; space for 6 Lynx helicopters would be very useful, but is not the same thing as space for 6 NH90 medium helicopters. HNLMS Zuiderkruis currently accommodates 2 Lynx helicopters.
The vessel is expected to hold 150 crew and up to 150 additional residents, such as helicopter crew and medical teams. Automation is expected to help achieve these low totals.
Self-defense will include 2 of Thales Nederlands 30mm Goalkeeper gatling gun systems, for last-ditch missile defense and withering fire against boats and UAVs, 2 single-barrel 30mm remote weapon systems (RWS) that can be aimed and fired from stations within the ship, and 4 “medium calibre” RWS that will probably be 12.7mm/ .50 cal. This compares with HNLMS Zuiderkruis’ single Goalkeeper system and 2 manned 12.7mm stations. The new JSS ships are also expected to include “signature reduction measures” in radar and infrared, ballistic protection, blast resistant construction, redundant and shock resistant systems, a gas citadel, and extensive fire fighting systems.
More on link
20-Jan-2010
Article Link
Damen Schelde recently announced a contract from the Dutch Defence Materiel Organisation to build a 28,000t “Joint Logistic Support Ship” (JSS), which is scheduled to launch in 2014 and replace the existing 16,900t HNLMS Zuiderkruis.
The Dutch want a very versatile ship that can resupply other warships, transport significant numbers of army equipment and vehicles, act as a floating headquarters, take on hospital duties, and embark up to 6 helicopters. Price was not disclosed, but that level of versatility will come with costs. Canada’s ill-fated JSS program had similar or larger ambitions, but the 3-ship, C$ 2.9 billion program was ultimately suspended when contractors informed the government that they could not supply what Canada wanted at the prices demanded. With respect to the Dutch design…
The Dutch JSS design measures 205m/ 672’6” long with 30m/ 98’5” beam, and 28,000t total displacement, offering much more space compared to the 190m length, 20m beam, and 16,900t for HNLMS Zuiderkruis. Power will come from 5 diesel generators offering up to 25 MW, and speeds of up to 18 knots will be achieved using 2 main electric motors of 9 MW each, driving 2 fixed-pitch propeller shaftlines, 2 bow thruster pods, and 1 stern thruster pod.
In order to fulfill its main supply role, the Dutch JSS will have 2 Replenishment-At-Sea masts, an elevator and crane for up to 40 tonnes, a large (“2000 lanemeters”) vehicle storage or evacuee holding area with roll on/roll off capability, and a “steel beach” stern design for cargo transfer via landing craft. A large helicopter deck can handle up to 2 CH-47 Chinook heavy-lift helicopters, and the hangar will be able to hold up to 6 helicopters of undefined type; space for 6 Lynx helicopters would be very useful, but is not the same thing as space for 6 NH90 medium helicopters. HNLMS Zuiderkruis currently accommodates 2 Lynx helicopters.
The vessel is expected to hold 150 crew and up to 150 additional residents, such as helicopter crew and medical teams. Automation is expected to help achieve these low totals.
Self-defense will include 2 of Thales Nederlands 30mm Goalkeeper gatling gun systems, for last-ditch missile defense and withering fire against boats and UAVs, 2 single-barrel 30mm remote weapon systems (RWS) that can be aimed and fired from stations within the ship, and 4 “medium calibre” RWS that will probably be 12.7mm/ .50 cal. This compares with HNLMS Zuiderkruis’ single Goalkeeper system and 2 manned 12.7mm stations. The new JSS ships are also expected to include “signature reduction measures” in radar and infrared, ballistic protection, blast resistant construction, redundant and shock resistant systems, a gas citadel, and extensive fire fighting systems.
More on link
FSTO
Army.ca Fixture
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I would hope that the government would have a different thought process (sorry I don't recall drinking that 40 pounder of whiskeywhiskey601 said:
) especially after the Navy's performance (once again) to Haiti. When the next disaster hits and all we have are ORCA's and MCDV's, the public will scream bloody murder.
J
jollyjacktar
Guest
On the drive home today one of the reporters who were embedded with Athabaskan is back home from Haiti. He was describing how our present response (equipment wise) was hampered by lack of suitable ships. He rightly pointed out that our CPFs and 280s were designed for hunting Russian subs mid Atlantic, not delivering goods/personnel ashore. Mention was made of the USS Gunston Hall and what it is capable of doing, our borrowing her in 2006 and of course the JSS. All in all a very good case was made on why the Navy should procure a suitable platform for the tasks that are being faced by the CF today. Maybe they might be the shove that gets the ball rolling again. He said the troops there were fantastic, but limited in what they could accomplish by lack of means. Here's hoping.....
Oldgateboatdriver
Army.ca Veteran
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Let's not reinvent the wheel:
We have the plans for the Protecteur class AOR's. They still work out. Lets build two new ones with Diesel-electric pods for propulsion and modern shipborne integrated control systems to reduce crewing requirements. (p.s.: people may remember that they carry landing crafts - would have been useful in Haiti if any had been available).
As for joint support, please pass on the Dutch JSS: All I can see so far is that they are a Landing Platform Dock with a Derrick stuck on one side to refuel her escorts. B.T.W. 129 soldiers carrying capacity: is that even one company? On the nice pictures, they have landed a field hospital. How many people out of 129 are left to do something else? The real alternative, cheap and easy, is something like the French Mistral or British HMS Ocean: ships built quickly at reasonable price from merchant ship designs: very small crewing requirement, large troop and equipment transport capacity, a good onboard hospital facility and a good deck to operate between 12 and 16 medium to heavy helicopters. Can you imagine if one of those had been sent to Haiti !
I would be willing to bet that we can build 2 new AOR's and 2 of these landing ships mentioned above for less than the estimate for three JSS AND build them all in Canada.
We have the plans for the Protecteur class AOR's. They still work out. Lets build two new ones with Diesel-electric pods for propulsion and modern shipborne integrated control systems to reduce crewing requirements. (p.s.: people may remember that they carry landing crafts - would have been useful in Haiti if any had been available).
As for joint support, please pass on the Dutch JSS: All I can see so far is that they are a Landing Platform Dock with a Derrick stuck on one side to refuel her escorts. B.T.W. 129 soldiers carrying capacity: is that even one company? On the nice pictures, they have landed a field hospital. How many people out of 129 are left to do something else? The real alternative, cheap and easy, is something like the French Mistral or British HMS Ocean: ships built quickly at reasonable price from merchant ship designs: very small crewing requirement, large troop and equipment transport capacity, a good onboard hospital facility and a good deck to operate between 12 and 16 medium to heavy helicopters. Can you imagine if one of those had been sent to Haiti !
I would be willing to bet that we can build 2 new AOR's and 2 of these landing ships mentioned above for less than the estimate for three JSS AND build them all in Canada.
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