AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[Haletown]

If we're talking about the Cyclone, its in the 14 ton range (28,650lbs)...

www.airforce-technology.com  has the weight as 6895kg/15,513Lb empty and a fuel load of 2143kg/4821lb  or 20,350ish pounds

 

[CountDC]

and with all those numbers do we have a volunteer to land a fully loaded one on the platform in question?  ( I take 3 paces back)

 

[h3tacco]

www.airforce-technology.com  has the weight as 6895kg/15,513Lb empty and a fuel load of 2143kg/4821lb  or 20,350ish pounds

If I had to choose between Air-forcetechnology.com and Baz's knowledge I would go with Baz. 28,650 lbs is the correct number the CH-148 is not 15,000lbs empty.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

The exact weight is less important than the ship is only able to carry one aircraft. With the TG's already losing the two spots on the TRUMPs, the JSS has to be able to carry three or four helos.

Does anyone know what plan 'B' is? If we don't get JSS, what are we going to do with all of those extremely expensive helicopters?

 

[Kirkhill]

How about lilypad operations with the CH148s operating from shore bases in EEZ/Defence of Canada roles with the AOPS as distant lilypads (up to Sea State 3)?

Pat Bay, Greenwood, Gander, Iqaluit, Resolute, Inuvik, Arctic Bay, Coppermine Inlet? Draw a 2 hour circle around any of those then post an AOPS out there as a floating FARP.  What does that do for coverage and response?  Both CH-148s (armed) and -149s (SAR)?

Admittedly the SOR is from Mar 2008.  Any newer news - definitive?

AOPS – Interim SOR (DMRS 10-2) Draft 121400 May 2008
3371-300001216 Vol 1 (DMRS 10-2) / RDIMS # 144233 Original – Project 00001216
20/45


4.2.3 Organic Air Operations. AOPS shall:

4.2.3.1 normally operate and maintain one light organic helicopter56 for up to and including 120
consecutive days;
4.2.3.2 embark a single light helicopter non-core crew air detachment;
4.2.3.3 provide Class 157 facilities in accordance with APP 2(F) Vol 1 - Helicopter Operations
from Ships other Than Aircraft Carrier (HOSTAC) for a one light helicopter;
4.2.3.4 provide Level 158 operations in accordance with HOSTAC;
4.2.3.5 be able to land, launch, house and re-fuel a CH 148 Cyclone;59
4.2.3.6 conduct CH 148 flight operations using “Aviation Night Vision Imaging System”
(ANVIS)60;
4.2.3.7 provide, within the limitations of para 4.2.3.3 and 4.2.3.4, to the extent practicable,
support for limited CH 148 operations to include limited and emergency maintenance routines;
4.2.3.8 be able to land, launch and re-fuel a CH 149 Cormorant61;
4.2.3.9 conduct Ship Without Air Detachement (SWOAD) operations with core crew personnel;
4.2.3.10 carry aviation fuel62 to support a minimum of 150 hours63 of flying operations with an
embarked light helicopter64; and
4.2.3.11 launch and recover a light helicopter, CH 148 or CH 149 without the benefit of a
helicopter haul-down and rapid securing device (HHRSD) while:
4.2.3.11.1 underway in up to and including SS 3656667; and
4.2.3.11.2 berthed alongside in harbour and at anchor.]

52 Assumption is that a diesel truck will use F-76
53 The GVWR includes the net weight of the vehicle, plus the weight of passengers, fuel, cargo and any accessories
added to the vehicle after purchase. The GVWR is a safety standard used to prevent overloading. The number for
the GVWR has been based on the maximum GVWR of an F-150 Supercab 4x4 (3.7 tonnes) and rounded up to 4.0
tonnes.
54 Portable POL arrangement to be provided by clients as required e.g. Land Forces support.
55 An average large ATV/snowmobile will have a twenty-litre fuel tank and will provide approx four hrs of
operations. A CPF carries up to twelve x 20L (approx) of POL. ROM for 100hrs is approximately 500 litres.
56 For the purpose of this SOR a Light helicopter is defined as a helicopter with a maximum take off weight of 5,080
kg (Bell 212 used as maximum weight. Empty weight of a Bell 212 is 2,517 kg). CHC Helicopter Corporation is
currently the main leasing organization in Canada and further info can be viewed at the following web site:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleet or http://www.chc.ca/
57 Class 1: The host ship has a landing area, service and maintenance facilities for the helo to be operated.
58 Level 1: The ship facilities are capable of supporting day and night helicopter operations under both VMC and
IMC for those helicopter designated.
59 It is not envisioned that the CH148 will be maintained onboard the AOPS.

Edit - It is of particular interest to me that Resolute and Nanisivik (Arctic Bay) straddle the North and South "coasts" of the NW Passage at a natural choke point;  that they are mutually supporting; that they supply alternate landing fields; that with an AOPS or two in the neighbourhood operations they could cover the entire passage and the eastern EEZ.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

That would be FRP wouldn't it? There's no mention of helicopter munitions in the AOPS SOR.

 

[Kirkhill]

That would be FRP wouldn't it? There's no mention of helicopter munitions in the AOPS SOR.

You're right.  My error.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Floundering along (usual copyright disclaimer):

Navy faces seven-year wait for new ships, Senate hears
http://thechronicleherald.ca/Canada/1123991.html

It could be up to seven years before the navy is able to replace its 1960s vintage supply ships, senior defence officials told a Senate committee on Monday.

And even then, the ships they get may have to be a scaled-down version [emphasis added] of the original multi-purpose vessel envisioned by National Defence and the Conservative government.

Dan Ross, assistant deputy minister of materiel, testified that a request for proposals for three new joint support ships likely won’t be issued until next year [emphasis added], and it will take another five to six years before the first one is delivered to the fleet.

Last summer, the federal government scuttled a $2.9 billion replacement process for supply ships, which were to double as army transport and command vessels, because the bids exceeded the Conservatives’ budget envelope.

That has forced the navy to go back and re-think the kinds of things it wants the ship to do, said deputy defence minister Robert Fonberg.

"We’re trying to live within the funding envelope," he said Monday.

"We’re looking at the capabilities to see what within that design was driving up the price, and if you were to take that out of the design what it would actually mean for the navy’s ability to operate."

Liberal Senator Tommy Banks wondered whether that meant the navy will be left with a less capable ship.

Fonberg said the federal government has not ruled out increasing the budget, but such a measure would mean the military would have to do without some other appropriation [emphasis added--oh dear].

The two existing supply ships — HMCS Protecteur and HMCS Preserver — are both nearly at the end of their life expectancy and have required major overhauls to stay in service.

Ross noted that at least one of the ships will have to undergo a year-long refit in order to remain in service until the new vessels arrive.

Replacing the aging tankers with multi-purpose ships — capable of carrying army supplies and vehicles — was first suggested in the 1994 defence white paper produced by Jean Chretien’s government. But the plan collected dust on the shelf until 2005, when it was resurrected by former prime minister Paul Martin and eventually adopted by the Conservatives.

Defence Minister Peter MacKay suggested last winter that he wanted to see a comprehensive shipbuilding strategy that would include work on the joint support ships.

So now, realistically, it'll be at least 2016 before the Navy has a new vessel. In 2006 the new Conservative government said the target date would be 2012.
http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/news-nouvelles/view-news-afficher-nouvelles-eng.asp?id=1959
On and on and on things go.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[FSTO]

Floundering along (usual copyright disclaimer):

Navy faces seven-year wait for new ships, Senate hears
http://thechronicleherald.ca/Canada/1123991.html

So now, realistically, it'll be at least 2016 before the Navy has a new vessel. In 2006 the new Conservative government said the target date would be 2012.
http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/news-nouvelles/view-news-afficher-nouvelles-eng.asp?id=1959
On and on and on things go.

Mark
Ottawa

When I was in Timor at the turn of the century, we were told 2005 there would be AOR hulls in the water.  Nice to see nothing has changed.

 

[ezbeatz]

Latest artist impression of the Dutch JSS Karel Doorman, from (the usually well informed guys at) www.dutchfleet.net.
Not an LPD, since it doesn't have a well deck.

Around 25.000t displacement.

See that little red thing pointing out at the end of the ship. That's a well deck!

 

[aesop081]

See that little red thing pointing out at the end of the ship. That's a well deck!

Psssst....

Doors at the back a well deck does not make.

For example, The HDMS Absalon. Doors at the back are for a RoRo capability, not well deck that gets flooded to release landing crafts.

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/absalon/

But in case of the Dutch ship, you are correct, it is a welldeck .

 

[gvg]

Psssst....

Doors at the back a well deck does not make.

For example, The HDMS Absalon. Doors at the back are for a RoRo capability, not well deck that gets flooded to release landing crafts.

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/absalon/

But in case of the Dutch ship, you are correct, it is a welldeck .

With the Dutch JSS, as pictured here, it's also a RoRo capability. This JSS has no welldeck, it's not an LPD.

Check the (clickable) pic on the Dutch MoD site: http://www.defensie.nl/dmo/materieelprojecten/zeestrijdkrachten/verwerving_joint_logistiek_ondersteuningsschip_(jss)/

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

The flexdeck in question on the Absalon class can be modified so it can launch the classes embarked landing craft, so it effect it is a quasi well deck.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Start of a post at The Torch:

Joint Support Ship: The wait continues/Politically-imperative pork
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2009/09/joint-support-ship-wait.html

What happens when the government (they all do) insists on designing and building vessels in Canada, and when the Navy over-reaches in its desires:

"Ships still on drawing board
Navy won’t talk to builders about supply vessels until next year...
http://thechronicleherald.ca/Canada/1144036.html

Mark
Ottawa

 

[gvg]

For those that are interested.

The Dutch have signed an agreement in principle with Damen Naval for their version of the JSS. It will cost €365,5mln (C$ 577,5mln) and have a displacement of 27.800 tons.

The letter to parliament said this about a cooperation with Canada:
The Canadian procurement strategy offered no starting point for cooperation, other than an information exchange.

Diesel-electric propulsion, maximum speed: 18 knots, crew of 152 (max 171) and room for an additional 129 troops for a total of 300, 2 heli spots (for NH-90 and/or Chinook) and a hangar for 6 of those helicopters (with wings folded) and a hospital with 2 operating rooms.

Parliament (and not only the oppostion) is starting to raise questions about the price, since the original (2005) budget was about €100mln less.

from: www.dutchfleet.net

www.defensie.nl

www.defensie.nl

 

[MarkOttawa]

Amazing what a country about as wealthy as Canada but with half the population is capable of doing.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[dapaterson]

Well, the vessel won't be built in Nova Scotia, so the MND would never approve...

 

[Haletown]

If I had to choose between Air-forcetechnology.com and Baz's knowledge I would go with Baz. 28,650 lbs is the correct number the CH-148 is not 15,000lbs empty.

I'll go with Sikorsky . . .  this is for the H-92 so not exactly for how we get our helo's

- internal load 26,500 lb 12,020 kg
- external load 28,300 lb 12,837 kg
Maximum external load 8,000 lb 3,629 kg **
Weight empty (Troop transport) 16,223 lb 7,362 kg
Operating weight empty 16,676 lb 7,563 kg
Maximum fuel load, (internal, standard) 5,130 lb 2,327 kg
Maximum fuel load, (internal, auxiliary 2 x 210 gallons) 7,965 lb 3,612 kg


http://www.sikorsky.com/StaticFiles/Sikorsky/Assets/Attachments/Mission%20Downloads/S92-044%20February%202009.pdf

last page

 

[Sub_Guy]

Is that a Cyclone in the second CGI generated picture?

 

[dapaterson]

I'm more concerned by the Iltis in the last picture.