• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

Was listening to Admiral Maddison on the radio the other day (CKNW in Vancouver) and when the subject of an Aircraft Carrier came up, he was pretty cool to the idea. Now when Joe Six-pack talks about carriers they are thinking that anything with a flat deck, airplane sitting on that deck with a superstructure to the side is a carrier. They don't know or care that there are all sorts from CVN to LHA.
Now that the CDS is asking for a honking big ship the subject of a ship like the ENFORCER has come up. Personally the Enforcer would be great for us but there is still a fear (I think) in the Navy to bring up anything close to a ship with a full flight deck. Just remember how the liberals slammed the Conservatives when they brought up the subject during the last election.
 
FSTO said:
Was listening to Admiral Maddison on the radio the other day (CKNW in Vancouver) and when the subject of an Aircraft Carrier came up, he was pretty cool to the idea. Now when Joe Six-pack talks about carriers they are thinking that anything with a flat deck, airplane sitting on that deck with a superstructure to the side is a carrier. They don't know or care that there are all sorts from CVN to LHA.
Now that the CDS is asking for a honking big ship the subject of a ship like the ENFORCER has come up. Personally the Enforcer would be great for us but there is still a fear (I think) in the Navy to bring up anything close to a ship with a full flight deck. Just remember how the liberals slammed the Conservatives when they brought up the subject during the last election.

Just a quick one that probably belongs in the political threads, however:  The Conservatives did NOT bring up the subject of an aircraft carrier, they brought up troop carrier.  The Liberals, either through guile or ignorance, translated that into "aircraft carrier".  The Canadian public, being generally ignorant of military matters, bought the "aircraft carrier" red herring hook, line, and sinker.

Sorry to interrupt - please return to  your regularly scheduled thread.
 
Retired CC said:
Just a quick one that probably belongs in the political threads, however:   The Conservatives did NOT bring up the subject of an aircraft carrier, they brought up troop carrier.   The Liberals, either through guile or ignorance, translated that into "aircraft carrier".   The Canadian public, being generally ignorant of military matters, bought the "aircraft carrier" red herring hook, line, and sinker.

Sorry to interrupt - please return to   your regularly scheduled thread.
Thats exactly what I was talking about. The Conservatives were talking about something reasonable that is vital to the defence of Canada IMHO. The Libs turned it into its usual fearmongering and used it to its political advantage. Granted the Conservitives did a poor job explaining the concept. (which proved Kim Campbell's assertion that elections were the wrong time to discuss issues.
 
The term the Conservatives actually used was hybrid carriers. Had they said troop transports and left the term carrier out of it the Liberals would not have been able to capitalize on their gaff in terms.

http://www.robanders.com/Issues/Policy%20Paper%20-%20Defence1.pdf
 
http://www.forces.gc.ca/admmat/dgmepm/pmojss/docs/Closing_of_Solicitation_of_Letter_of_Interest.pdf

Mike
 
mjohnston39 said:
http://www.forces.gc.ca/admmat/dgmepm/pmojss/docs/Closing_of_Solicitation_of_Letter_of_Interest.pdf

Mike

Anyone know the proposed operational date for the first vessel?



Matthew.    ???
 
Cdn Blackshirt said:
Anyone know the proposed operational date for the first vessel?
Matthew.     ???

I'd wait till they start building them before being worried about when they become operational.
 
I seem to recall that construction should begin in 2008 and the first launched/opperational in 2012... I guess it will really depend on funding, political interference and a multitude of other factors.

Mike
 
Looking at the SOR on the JSS, the picture at the top looks awfully familiar.

Her lines look like Enforcer lines and Royal Schelde doesn't seem too concerned about shopping its designs around to other yards for local building.

As to numbers - 3 must have, 4 nice to have if dollars allow - suggests that the Navy can get its job done with 3 hulls as they used to.  If there is money available for a fourth hull how about building a cheaper ATS (Amphibious Transport Ship) without all the AOR Top Hamper and leave her decks clear.

The fourth dedicated ATS would take the load off the JSSs for container cargo, (if all 3 JSSs are available to lift a Vanguard Battle Group's 7500 l-m then no helo ops are possible as the flight decks and hangars will be full of ISO containers).   Also the JSSs can only hang around to support land operations for 30 days and then likely only one JSS.

3 JSS(AOR) and one JSS(ATS).   Same ships with some modifications.   The ATS doesn't have to be a full flight deck ship.   She could be along the lines of the Bay Class LSD(A)s, the Rotterdam, Johan de Witt, the Galicia, Ocean, Bulwark and San Antonios.   Superstructure forward, flight deck aft.

Howaboutit?

Comparison of the JSS and the Enforcer catalog posted by Blackshirt suggest to me that the lead candidate is probably a 25,000 tonne Enforcer, ice strengthened.  

I wonder how much it would cost to turn them into Double Acting vessels along the lines of Kvaerner-Masa's arctic oil tankers - their hull forms allow conventional running in open seas but the ship can reverse its way through one year ice like an ice breaker.   Perhaps a possibility for the AOR's where there seems to be no intention of a floodable well deck.   As well it would meet that 365 day a year Montreal requirement.

http://www.ship-technology.com/projects/tempera/
 
PS what is the nbsp designator?  Have I contravened some new code imposed in my absence? ???
 
Kirkhill said:
PS what is the nbsp designator?   Have I contravened some new code imposed in my absence? ???

NBSP

Short for Non-breaking space, NBSP is commonly used in programming and in HTML that create a space in the program or document without breaking the line the space is on. An example of how a user may insert a NBSP in HTML would be by adding the following HTML tag:



If you cut and paste an HTML page into and then back out of a text editor which doesn't recognize HTML, the HTML tags (or codes) will be spelled out, rather than implimented.  Not a big deal
 
Golly Gee ... apparently other countries know how to SPEED UP their acquisition process ...
(but, of course ... the "experts" will find countless ways of telling us why Canada and Australia can't "partner up" on their purchases ... like, for example:  "... an Aussie ship wouldn't be acceptable in Canada because it couldn't possibly meet Canadian bilingualism regulations ..." or even better, "... Canada doesn't need a ship capable of carrying Abrams tanks, and besides - if the Navy doesn't need a "Cadillac" helicopter ... then it certainly doesn't need a ship compatible with our ABCA allies or with surplus capacity)

Govt advances amphibious ship project
13:53 AEST Thu Aug 11 2005
AAP
The government launched a competition to build two new amphibious naval ships, alerting local shipbuilders to be ready to tender for the $2 billion project early next year.

Defence Minister Robert Hill said the contract would only be decided after thorough financial and technical comparisons between Australian bids and overseas options.

The project would provide the Navy with two amphibious vessels for combat use, regional disaster relief, humanitarian aid, peacekeeping, peace monitoring and assistance for policing or military missions.

Senator Hill said Australian shipbuilders would be invited in the second quarter of next year, to tender for either or both of two designs - the 27,000 tonne Spanish Navantia or the 22,000 tonne French Armaris Mistral.

"Each ship will preferably be able to transport up to 1000 personnel, have six helicopter landing spots and provision for a mix of troop lift and armed reconnaissance helicopters," he said in a statement.

"It will also be able to transport up to 150 vehicles including the new M1A1 Abrams tanks and armoured vehicles.

"Each ship will also be equipped with medical facilities, including two operating theatres and a hospital ward."

Under the government plan, the new vessels would enter service around 2012.

Last week Senator Hill warned key local shipbuilders - Tenix, ASC and Austal - the government would prefer the ships be built in Australia, but not at any price.

He repeated that warning.

"The government's preference is to see the ships built in Australia. However, Australian industry will need to demonstrate it can deliver the project at a competitive price," Senator Hill said.

He said the government had given first pass approval to the project and committed $29.8 million towards the design development phase.

That would enable Navantia and Armaris to now work on defining the requirements for the ships, incorporating essential Australian environmental, safety and technical requirements.

Senator Hill said the tender documentation would allow bidders to form teaming arrangements with other firms, submit fixed price bids, provide innovative solutions to improve price and schedule, and also bid for support solutions.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=57722&print=true
 
wait for it Bossi ... you never know what might happen. Maybe the Chi-Cheemaun  will come up for sale ..
 
Again, I'm left confused as to claims we apparently cannot afford such ships and the Australians can.

Regardless, here's another article from Defence Industry Daily and some photographs....



Matthew.  :salute:

========================================================================

Australia Approves 2 Finalist Designs for $2B Amphibious Ships Project
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2005/08/australia-approves-2-finalist-designs-for-2b-amphibious-ships-project/index.php#orison_mc
Posted 12-Aug-2005 16:06
Related stories: Air Reconnaissance, Australia & S. Pacific, Contracts - Awards, Design Innovations, Events, Issues - Political, Lobbying, New Systems Tech, Official Reports, Other Corporation, Policy - Procurement, Pre-RFP, Surface Ships - Combat
Also on this day: 12-Aug-2005 »

HMAS Manoora LPA
(click to view full) The Australian government has approved the first stage of a $2 billion LHD Amphibious Ships project that will provide the Royal Australian Navy with two new multi-purpose ships that would have air support, amphibious assault, transport and command centre roles. They will replace the Navy's two existing Kanimbla-Class LPAs (HMAS Kanimbla and HMAS Manoora) from about 2010, significantly upgrading Australia's force projection capabilities.

The government has now given first pass approval to the project and committed $29.8 million towards the Design Development Phase. The finalist ship designs include:

Spain's Navantia has designed a new LHD ship at approximately 27,000 tonnes.
France's Armaris is offering its Mistral-Class LHD ships with modifications for additional troop carrying capability, at approximately 22,000 tonnes. See also A study on the feasibility of local construction of an LHD/assault and command ship for the Royal Australian Navy [PDF file]

Navantia LHD Mockup
SHIP_LHD_Navantia_lg.jpg


Each ship will preferably have the ability to transport up to 1000 personnel, have six helicopter landing spots and provision for a mix of troop lift and armed reconnaissance helicopters. It will also be able to transport up to 150 vehicles including the new M1A1 Abrams tanks and armored vehicles. Finally, each ship will be equipped with medical facilities, including two operating theaters and a hospital ward.

For comparison purposes, the USA's Wasp-class LHDs are 42,000 tonnes, and the proposed LHA-R would weigh in at 50,000 tonnes.


Mistral-Class LHD
SHIP_LHD_Mistral_lg.jpg


Australia's selection tradeoffs include the fact that the Navantia LHD would have a greater carrying capacity, but construction of the first ship has only just started in Spain. In comparison, the French Aramis-Class ship has slightly less carrying capacity but has been built and is undertaking its final tests with the French Navy. A number of observers believe the Navantia design has a slight edge at this point in the competition.

Australian shipbuilders will be invited to tender for either or both of two designs, and a Request for Tender will be released to the Australian shipbuilding industry in the second quarter of 2006.

Funding for the program's Design Development Phase will enable Navantia and Armaris to work on defining the requirements for the ships, incorporating necessary Australian environmental, safety and technical requirements. The tender documentation will allow bidders to make teaming arrangements, propose innovative solutions to improve price and schedule, submit a fixed price bid submission, and bid through life support solutions.

Nonetheless, overseas build options will be considered and to quote Defence Minister Sen. Hill: "The Government's preference is to see the ships built in Australia, however Australian industry will need to demonstrate it can deliver the project at a competitive price."

As might be imagined, this approach has provoked some lobbying and controversy in the Australian shipbuilding industry, which has also pointed to gaps in the program.

Australian shipbuilding sources claim that building the two LHDs overseas would cost Australia's naval industry around 1,000 jobs and weaken it severely. They also note that cost estimates are unrefined and don't yet incorporate any dialogue with the designer over technical issues and possible cost reduction measures.

The Australian Defence Materiel Organisation (DMO) commissioned Canberra-based economic consultancy ACIL Tasman to undertake a study, "Skills shortages and the Amphibious ships project," whose final report was completed in April 2005. Despite a reducing number of naval construction projects over the past five years, it noted that Australia's broader naval and marine construction capacity has actually expanded. The DMO itself has also committed some $200 million over the next ten years to the Skilling Australian Defence Industry (SADI) initiative in order to raise both skills and workforce numbers to meet the demands of the Defence Capability Plan.

As DID has reported re: previous Australian ship contracts, state efforts are underway to secure shipbuilding for this contract, and private companies are also making investments. In addition to Forgacs' existing construction and refit facilities at Cairncross dry dock in Brisbane, ADI's Garden Island yard in Sydney and Tenix's Williamstown Naval Shipyard, Western Australia is already planning a major expansion of its recently completed Australian Marine Complex south of Fremantle which will strengthen its bid to carry out module construction and consolidation of the LHDs.

For an Australian build, the Amphibious Ships contract would be awarded in early 2007, with the in-service date for the first ship being 2012.

============================================================================
 
Cdn Blackshirt said:
Again, I'm left confused as to claims we apparently cannot afford such ships and the Australians can.

"... Spain's Navantia has designed a new LHD ship at approximately 27,000 tonnes.

Each ship will preferably have the ability to transport up to 1000 personnel, have six helicopter landing spots and provision for a mix of troop lift and armed reconnaissance helicopters. It will also be able to transport up to 150 vehicles including the new M1A1 Abrams tanks and armored vehicles. Finally, each ship will be equipped with medical facilities, including two operating theaters and a hospital ward.

For comparison purposes, the USA's Wasp-class LHDs are 42,000 tonnes, and the proposed LHA-R would weigh in at 50,000 tonnes.

Australia's selection tradeoffs include the fact that the Navantia LHD would have a greater carrying capacity, but construction of the first ship has only just started in Spain. In comparison, the French Aramis-Class ship has slightly less carrying capacity but has been built and is undertaking its final tests with the French Navy. A number of observers believe the Navantia design has a slight edge at this point in the competition.

Gentlemen, Orders:

1.  SITUATION.  As your new CDS, I view it as essential for Canada to have the ability to deploy military forces by sea - in essence, an "expeditionary force" capability.

2.  MISSION.  YOU WILL IMMEDIATELY PURCHASE TROOP-CARRYING SHIPS.

3.  EXECUTION.
3.a.  Concept of Operations.  It is my intent to strengthen Canada's INTEROPERABILITY with selected allies by partnering our ship purchase program with an allied country or countries - either a NATO ally, or an ABCA ally (such as Australia, and/or Spain).
3.b.  I see Canada's new HMCS CONFEDERATION/HMCS CONSTITUTION class ships as preferably having the ability to transport up to 1000 personnel, have six helicopter landing spots and provision for a mix of troop lift and armed reconnaissance helicopters. It will also be able to transport up to 150 vehicles including heavy armoured vehicles. Finally, each ship will be equipped with medical facilities, including two operating theaters and a hospital ward.[/b]
3.c.  In order to defeat nay-sayers and prevent political interference which would delay or even stop this program, effective immediately Public Affairs shall launch a public information campaign to demonstrate the urgency, and expediency of parthering with an ally such as Australia in purchasing ships such as the Navantia option.
3.d.  This purchase project must NOT be delayed by seditious activities or sabotage such as we've already seen in other defence acquisitions ...

What?  Where am I?  Why is everybody staring at me ... ?
Was I dreaming that I was CDS again ... ?

Hey - wait a minute ...
Why are all these NDHQ staff writing down everything I've been saying and pretending it was THEIR idea ... ?
 
That's very nice but we have a national (Liberal Party of Canada, anyway â “ it is said to amount to the same thing) industrial strategy which says, in part, that: all major war vessels will be built in Levis â “ a suburb of Québec City.  (See: http://www.marinetalk.com/articles_HTML/xxx00093149IN.html )

The Industrie Davie yard's capacities are at: http://www.davie.ca/eng/02/mas0202.htm

For comparison, consider the Navatania (one of the Australian candidates) yard's capacity at: http://www.navantia.es/cgi-bin/run.dll/extranet/jsp/programa.do

I do not know enough about shipbuilding but it appears that Davie might not be able to build a ship as big as the Australians think they need.

That brings me to another part of the Liberal Party of Canada's national strategy for shipbuilding which says: if Davie cannot build it then the Canadian Navy does not need it.

So, it's really simple: our JSS requirements will equal whatever Davie can build.  What's all the fuss about?  Isn't it clear that our government wants the very best for our sailors, soldiers and aviators?  And who is the Hiller guy, anyway; what does he know about our national strategy?

 
Edward Campbell said:
That's very nice but we have a national (Liberal Party of Canada, anyway â “ it is said to amount to the same thing) industrial strategy which says, in part, that: all major war vessels will be built in Levis â “ a suburb of Québec City.  (See: http://www.marinetalk.com/articles_HTML/xxx00093149IN.html )
Do you suppose that the national industrial strategy might have anything to do with the fact that the Davie yard is the only shipyard in Canada capable of constructing vessels of that size?  It's simply not true that the government won't buy anything from elsewhere - the YAG replacements are being built by Victoria Shipyards in BC because they are very small boats.  The fact is that our lax support of our native shipbuilding industry has left us with only one yard able to do the job.

The Industrie Davie yard's capacities are at: http://www.davie.ca/eng/02/mas0202.htm
250m x 60m is quite ample - if yard capacity was the sole determining factor in this, a carrier could be designed to fit these dimensions. You can bet that the size of their construction berths would be expanded in a hurry if the yard was awarded a $5bn contract for 300m-long ships.
 
hamiltongs said:
Do you suppose that the national industrial strategy might have anything to do with the fact that the Davie yard is the only shipyard in Canada capable of constructing vessels of that size?  It's simply not true that the government won't buy anything from elsewhere - the YAG replacements are being built by Victoria Shipyards in BC because they are very small boats.  The fact is that our lax support of our native shipbuilding industry has left us with only one yard able to do the job.

I said all major war vessels, minor war vessels have been and will be built wherever.

The decision to force Saint John to close was 100% political.  I would argue that we need only as much capacity as is necessary to finish (add weapons and electronics suites) and refit most ships in Canada.  We (government and business alike) should buy all from the lowest global bidder and allow the taxpayers of the 'winning' country to subsidize the ships we need.

There are two major impediments to having a native shipbuilding industry:

"¢ Low demand - which means we build too many "one off" vessels; and

"¢ Too much competition for foreign sales, supported by ludicrous subsidies by many governments.

Joining the subsidy game is madness.  Better to have one or two government owned/contractor operated dockyards to fit out and refit warships and subsidize nothing in Canada.  Buy everything off-shore, let the other guys subsidize us.
 
Back
Top