Another Israel/Palestine debate that started as something else - Carpe Diem

[Infanteer]

I don't care what you use for logic or show as picture's of "boy soldiers', your equating cadets to suicide bombers flies in the face of reason. Don't like it? to bad! thats my opinion, and I think you will find there are more people who will agree with me than you.

Well, that's the open mind we need....

Perhaps a different approach is needed.   The best way to start understanding how others are different is to first get the impression of our own "will to war" - Keegan's History of Warfare is a good general read.   Better is Victor Davis Hanson's books (Carnage and Culture) and John Lynn's Battle.   They approach the topic from different viewpoints, but they both point to the importance of cultural input on the way to people fight.   We've talked about this on these forums:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/30147.new.html#new

Once you get an idea of Western inputs on war and conflict (which we see embodied in things like Cadet movements) start to look at the cultural inputs of other societies.   In this specific issue, look at macro-cultural inputs (Palestinian adherence to Islam) and micro-cultural inputs (genuine and perceived Palestinian grievances against the Israelis).   Their is alot of material on this.

Acorn is bang on when he says that:

I often see sentiments here scoffing at "cultural awareness" training, but ultimately it's that trg that gives us much of the success we can claim on our deployments.

"4th Generation Warfare", or asymmetric warfare, is one of perception, and we cannot learn how to affect the perception of our opponents if we do not understand them.   If we scoff them (as I've seen in this thread) we do so at our own peril.

You can choose to take off the "Western glasses" if you wish - they've fallen off my head a few times and it is surprising what you see.   Conversely, you can refuse to hear me out, refuse to refute what I've said here and shove cotton in your ears if you want - that's your decision.

Cheers,
Infanteer

 

[larry Strong]

Never really been accused of having an open mind-sarcasm taken. and I am not scoffing at my enemies.

Have read Kegans "History of Warfare', haven't seen the other 2 books.

As for the "Western Glasses" I was not born in this country and have probably lived in and seen a lot more of the third world than most people!

It's not a question of not hearing you "out", I just don't accept your logic of trying to equate two different type's of cultural activities as the same. And if you were to look at the "National" bent on the cadet movements, you will find that they are going more awya from the military side of their skill, and going more towards the PC side of life. I.E. No camming up, little or no mention of military tactics, excetera


You can sit on your pedestal and quote whoever you want, and I will give you credit in that you probably have a better education than i do, and are more eloquent at saying what you wish to express, but I have been around for 50 years (and that is by no means the end all and be all), and from my perspective on the world, I still see your statement as irresponsible.

 

[Infanteer]

I just don't accept your logic of trying to equate two different type's of cultural activities as the same. And if you were to look at the "National" bent on the cadet movements, you will find that they are going more awya from the military side of their skill, and going more towards the PC side of life. I.E. No camming up, little or no mention of military tactics, excetera

I'm not trying to get you to accept my logic, I'm trying to point out the logic that Palestinian protesters may ascribe to follows the same thought process as Westerners have - only it is informed through separate and unique cultural inputs (hence the difference between 3542 Cadet Squadron and Junior Hamas).

Let me put it in as simple terms as possible:

Cadets = youth emulating military qualities of self-sacrifice, pride of service, and discipline (whether their parents put them there or not) which is seen as admirable; consider the fact that these traits are ascribed to by Western Soldiers who are fighting Muslims.

Bomber Babies at protests = youth emulating traits of piety and martyrdom essential to religious defence (whether their parents put them there or not) which is seen as admirable; consider the fact that these traits are ascribed to by Muslims who fight us.

Of course they are not the same, but kids as icons of defence of society is a strong theme in both.   Irregardless of the current policies of the Cadet Movement, it still remains an organization tied to the Canadian Forces (in image, bearing, norms, and outlook).

You can sit on your pedestal and quote whoever you want, and I will give you credit in that you probably have a better education than i do, and are more eloquent at saying what you wish to express, but I have been around for 50 years (and that is by no means the end all and be all), and from my perspective on the world, I still see your statement as irresponsible.

Drawing distinction of age or education is irrelevant - either the argument is good or it is lacking in substance.   I've always been willing to defer to experience if someone has Been There and Done That (implying that first hand experience - usually accrued with age - gives people an "unfiltered" viewpoint) and presents their experience in an objective manner.

You've only said that I've been irresponsible and off the mark, while at the same time failing to refute the explanation I put forth.   Either point out where I'm wrong (without using a straw-man "out" like "I'm 50") or say "In the words of Ron Burgundy, Agree to Disagree...."

 

[Dare]

http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=669
http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ClipMediaID=60227&ak=null

Official PA TV.

http://www.memritv.org/ for more.

 

[larry Strong]

Not using any cop outs, all I am saying is I don't agree with you. I don't have and am not going to look for info to "refute" you. C U all in 2 weeks, time to go back to work.

 

[Andyboy]

I have to disagree with you Infanteer.

I see your point that the kids (or their parents) are just emulating their "defence" forces but I think that drawing any equivalence between the the CF and Hamas is repugnant. While the people of Palestine may believe that Hamas is defending them against the Israelies they should by any reasonable standard find their methods unacceptable. Those children are being raised to beleive that suicide and murder are reasonable ways to achieve their goals. In order for a society to advance their children need to be valued as the precious commoddity they are. Parents should not be raising their children to murder others much less themselves, to shrug our shoulders and say "it's just their way" is not helpful to anyone, espesciallly the children.

 

 

[Infanteer]

While the people of Palestine may believe that Hamas is defending them against the Israelies they should by any reasonable standard find their methods unacceptable. Those children are being raised to beleive that suicide and murder are reasonable ways to achieve their goals.

Seeing it through Western glasses - you find it unacceptable that they don't pursue conflict through the accepted construct of Western ways and means (Westphalian state, Geneva Convention, combatant/bystander, war as a political tool, etc).  What you see as suicide and murder may be sacrifice for the defence of Islam against a perceived foreign occupier.

In order for a society to advance their children need to be valued as the precious commoddity they are.

Advance?  Perhaps they feel that if Dar-al-Islam is threatened, there will be no "advancement" - this is where we have to fight the war of perception that I alluded to earlier.  We can't assume that we know what advancement is for others or that we can show them the way to do it.

Parents should not be raising their children to murder others much less themselves, to shrug our shoulders and say "it's just their way" is not helpful to anyone, espesciallly the children.

I never said to "shrug our shoulders" - I'm trying to point out that these people have genuine rational for doing what they do and that it may not make sense within our own cultural construct, there is a valid reason for why they are doing - whether it is right or wrong depends on who writes the history books

 

[Andyboy]

Seeing it through Western glasses - you find it unacceptable that they don't pursue conflict through the accepted construct of Western ways and means (Westphalian state, Geneva Convention, combatant/bystander, war as a political tool, etc).   What you see as suicide and murder may be sacrifice for the defence of Islam against a perceived foreign occupier.

No, but thanks for telling me what I think. I find it unacceptable that parents want their children dead. I would hazard a guess that western or not most parents love their children and don't want to see them harmed. 

Advance?   Perhaps they feel that if Dar-al-Islam is threatened, there will be no "advancement" - this is where we have to fight the war of perception that I alluded to earlier.   We can't assume that we know what advancement is for others or that we can show them the way to do it.

I mean advance beyond the current generation, not the way you assume I mean, but thanks again for telling me what I think.

I never said to "shrug our shoulders" - I'm trying to point out that these people have genuine rational for doing what they do and that it may not make sense within our own cultural construct, there is a valid reason for why they are doing - whether it is right or wrong depends on who writes the history books

You may not have said to "shrug your shoulders" but that seems to be the gist of your argument. Are you saying that because their culture glorifies  deliberately killing your own children we are supposed to accept it? I guess we should just accept child prostitution in Thailand, or the rape of infants in Africa because their cultures find it acceptable. How about the mass slaughter in Europe during WW2, seemed to be in vogue then. The Nazis had plenty of rational arguments for rounding up humans and putting them to death. I suppose the only thing that made that wrong was that we won? Poppycock.

 

[MysticLies]

my terrorist is your freedom fighter, and my freedom fighter is your terrorist.

Palestine unlike Israel does not have a top notch weapon system nor does it have anything close to it. from what I know Palestine and Israeli's don't like each other, maybe a couple of years ago you would ask why, but nowadays everyone knows. Both groups of people have made each others life more miserable then Hell. Suicide Bomber's are people who were taught at some age to differenagate between black and white...meaning no gray. So basically what they do they believe is right, and thats how their freedom fighter becomes my terrorist. While other groups of people are most advanced, and have weapons of their own. Palestins aren't very wealth and neither do they have any weapons. So thats why they mostly refer to suicide attacks because there options aren't so wide, they don't have much choice. While others countries are more advanced and don't require the need to perform suicide attacks. They still instill some of the same thinking process. I have never been to cadets and haven't even been to BMQ yet, But if Cadets were taught to kill those who bring harm to themselves and their society, then they are no different then Suicide Bombers. Meaning not all suicide Bombers are bad, its just the cause that is sometimes bad.

Politics is hypocritical...what can I say. I wrote this reply fairly fast, so it is missing more explanation.

 

[-rb]

my terrorist is your freedom fighter, and my freedom fighter is your terrorist.
Palestins aren't very wealth and neither do they have any weapons. So thats why they mostly refer to suicide attacks because there options aren't so wide, they don't have much choice.

No weapons??...and the countless, mortars, rocket attacks and massive bombs dug under Israeli checkpoints constitutes no weapons?   :

While others countries are more advanced and don't require the need to perform suicide attacks. They still instill some of the same thinking process.

The only difference being that Western Nation Armies are by law required to follow their ROE, please tell me what code of conduct a suicide bomber follows when targetting innocent civilians.

Fair enough, your freedom fighter is anothers terrorist and vice versa, just make sure before you head off to BMQ you know which side you're on.

 

[Britney Spears]

What would you guys do if you were in the Palestinian's shoes?

 

[Infanteer]

What would you guys do if you were in the Palestinian's shoes?

Thank you Britney.

What I've been alluding to is that events that take place combined with cultural inputs may lead to Palestinians viewing things differently.   For some (if not many) Palestinians, the situation in the Middle East, especially after the Al-Aqsa Intifada, may be one of Total War to them.   Certainly, the language resembles that of past total wars (German-Soviet, US-Japanese).

Since they don't have bombers to flatten Haifa, Tel Aviv, and the Settlements they use a method (suicide bombing) that is acceptable to them culturally (it jives with Islam).   You call it murder, but they may see the inhabitants of these cities, just as 8th Airforce did, as legitimate targets.

Again, not that I agree with it, but trying to put myself in their shoes to gain a better understanding of their will to war.

 

[MysticLies]

Words fail me. You have earned my instant and complete disgust. Congratulations.
-the feeling is mutual seeing as how you can judge people just by a single paragraph.

There is a difference between fighting between soldiers and sneaking onto a school bus and blowing up a bunch of kiddies. NO cause and NO technological inequities justify that.
-yes I will admit there is a difference, like I said I was in haste writing my paragraph, and I apologize . But what I was trying to say is that in the Palestine and Israel fighting is different then one can expect in some different place. In that war the casualties are not the soldiers, but the people the population. Meaning if you look at both sides, itss the mostly the innocent people who are killed rather then some army force.

There is no question that they do what they think they have to do, but to do as you seem to have done and try to justify it, thats inexcusable. I admit my glasses a tinted a little too red-white-and blue sometimes, but this comment goes too far.
-Like I said before I agree, my statement was not properly worded and seemed to have poorly shown what I was trying to say.

 

[stukirkpatrick]

This definitely brings up a morality issue.  What key differences are there between a suicide bomber blowing up civilians, and an aircraft deliberately dropping bombs on civilian targets?  (ie firebombing of Dresden, atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki) - I am in no way supportive of the "methods" that Palestinian millitant groups use, but is it the fact that the scale of destruction can be narrowed down to (relatively) fewer faces, that change our moral outlook, compared to the larger, more anonymously accomplished acts of other "total" wars? (pilots couldnt see nor choose their individual targets, as a suicide bomber could, though undoubtedly aircraft bombers killed innocent women and children in exponentially larger numbers each attack).  Using the oft quoted phrase from Stalin, "A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic."

As Infanteer pointed out, suicide is culturally accepted in Islam, if it is seen as martyrdom.  Are the bombers' acts more "wrong" because of the motives of the militant groups themselves?  (Anti-Semitism preventing them from accepting a Jewish State).  And where can we draw the line between what is the "wrong" method of total war, and what is "right"?

 

[Infanteer]

If we want to debate the very basic facts, yes, the Palestinians are using weapons as they see fit, for all we know they may view bombing from the sky as cowardly and immoral just as we view suicide bombers.

They do, this is what I argued in my original post on the matter.  We call someone a coward for running at us dressed in civilian clothes and immolating themselves to inflict casualties upon us - it is completely conceivable that others may say the same about dropping bombs on buildings from 10,000ft without coming out to stand up and fight, is it not?

Who is to say they are justified? To them they are, to us they are not. Who is right? To them, they have the right answer and vice versa with us. So if you want to argue like that, thats good. But you will not get anywhere, you have to apply some sort of moral standard (theirs or ours, or someone else's) to it to make a final decision. Because in the end, it depends on how you look at it. And my stance is, suicide bombing is cowardly and immoral.  Eventually you have to apply some sort of moral/social/cultural standard to the situation to make a decision, unless you want to sit on the fence.

I've never stated that you can't form an opinion on that - what I am stating is that you have to understand why other people are willing to do what they do if you want to truly understand the human dynamic of the conflict (beyond the lame good/evil one that Crusaders love to chuck around).  The whole incident that sparked this debate was that people were stating "I can't believe people would hold their kids up like suicide bombers - fucking savages".  This is a mentality that won't get us anywhere in understanding the problem - I've tried to point out that:

A) The Palestinians may have a legitimate reason(s) for the outpouring of rage.

B) Their actions, rather then being cowardly and immoral, are actually what is to be expected.  As I said earlier, challenging a Muslim people on both short-term (Palestinian/Israeli issues) and long-term (civilizational friction with Islam) issues is going to draw a response (suicide attacks) from that society.

Nowhere in this does it say one cannot make a moral judgement; I've done it already in this thread.  However, Palestinians are reacting because there is a legitimate, 4GW conflict and suicide bombings have become the accepted COA, especially after the desperation triggered by the Al-Aqsa Intifada.  You don't have to like it - but you have to accept that, in their own eyes, they are not sneaky, immoral and cowardly figures (I still fail to understand how the ability to immolate yourself for your cause is cowardly?).  Recognize that this is the opponent and his tactics and beliefs are genuine and his conviction in his cause is as strong as yours.  Respect him and do your best to defeat him.  Disrespecting the foe is a good way to end up on the last chopper out of Saigon, and that is the mentality that I am seeing in some of the posts.

 

[MysticLies]

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/30574.0.HTML

-ah just forget about it :-\...

 

[Acorn]

It is obvious what drives these people to do what they do, and I can understand why mother's would want their child to be a martyr to a cause (although I still disagree with your comparison of it to cadets, I just can't). Thats just how a culture works.

Your issue with the Cadets comparison is due to your inability to set aside your bias. That may be due to your close association with the movement. So be it. I don't think you truly understand why a mother may want her child to be a "martyr" though.

We know why they do it, now we need to figure out how to stop it.  

Believe it or not, understanding why they do it, without condemning it out of had (regardless of how repugnant it is to our culture) goes a long way towards figuring out how to stop it. If I were to take the views of the posters to this thread into account for an "how to stop it" decision, using the majority views expressed, my only solution would be to immolate the region.

Let's introduce another set of variables:

Our perception of Palestinian mothers seeking martyrdom for thier kids is based on what the media has shown us. My questions for you to consider are:

1. Why are you so ready to believe those media reports as truth, while you slag the media for bias and lack of professionalism in other threads?
2. Have any of you seen kids in faux soldier uniforms on various parades here in Canada? I have, including as kid in CFs with MWO rank - that of his dad.
2.a. Is this so far different from kids in the Middle East, at a parade/event, wearing the uniform of that society's heros (however misguided we think those "heros" are)?
3. Whether you're 15 or 50 it's experience of the events of a culture that count. A 50 year old Canadian soldier generally has much less experience of cultural motivators than someone who lives in that culture - even a soldier who serves in the same environment. We have difficulty discarding our cultural armour.

Finally, I'd like to point out the following tidbit gleaned from a university website on Islam (my emphasis added):
"Today, technology is helping bring Islam into the homes of millions of people, Muslim and otherwise. There is a blessing in all this of course, but there is a real danger that Muslims will fall under the impression that owning a book or having a database is equivalent to being a scholar of Islam. This is a great fallacy. Therefore, we would like to warn you that this database is merely a tool, and not a substitute for learning, much less scholarship in Islam."

Think critically about the effects of making the Christian doctrine accessable to all, through translation and increased education. That began to happen in the 14thC in Europe. Just take a few moments and think about where things stand in Islam.

By the way: suicide is as much a sin in Islam as in Catholicism.

Acorn

 

[winchable]

Go away for a few days and you miss alot, swear we've been down this road before..

Acorn and Infanteer good to see someone out to make this interesting, lest it becomes a quiet thread ;D

1. Why are you so ready to believe those media reports as truth, while you slag the media for bias and lack of professionalism in other threads?
2. Have any of you seen kids in faux soldier uniforms on various parades here in Canada? I have, including as kid in CFs with MWO rank - that of his dad.
2.a. Is this so far different from kids in the Middle East, at a parade/event, wearing the uniform of that society's heros (however misguided we think those "heros" are)?
3. Whether you're 15 or 50 it's experience of the events of a culture that count. A 50 year old Canadian soldier generally has much less experience of cultural motivators than someone who lives in that culture - even a soldier who serves in the same environment. We have difficulty discarding our cultural armour.

1.Becuase that would mean that there are certain within Western culture that are fallible. Western culture has been raised to believe that there is absolutely nothing wrong with it and that most, if not all, views contrary to it are inherently wrong. In order to support this infallibility hypocrisy is often needed.

2. & 2, A.) Absolutely, conversely if we went on a Palestinian forum and tried to convince them that the Israeli Pilot or Tankcrewman or Israeli Army/Air Force Cadet looks "Brave and Smart in their Dress uniform" we'd be meeting the same resistance. Objectivity is something we pride ourselves on at times but when it comes down to it, many are as objective as an angry Palestinian.

3. BTDT that does not always mean "Been there experienced that" which is understandable, how can one let down cultural armour when one can't even remove their body armour?
I find just as often it can mean "Been there watched my ass"  as I said, understandable, but if we're using these views to shape our own because we've never 'BTDT' than we are not getting the full picture, and objectivity is shot.
I'd be just as willing if not more willing to listen to a bohemian backpacker tell me their experiences and understanding of the Arab peoples, or TE Lawrence who fooled himself into thinking that he was one, than I would be a grizzled vet with a patch over his eye telling  me about his experiences.

Quote from: 2332Piper on Yesterday at 21:44:19
If we want to debate the very basic facts, yes, the Palestinians are using weapons as they see fit, for all we know they may view bombing from the sky as cowardly and immoral just as we view suicide bombers.

Precisely and if you're objective you can see that the two are not as far apart as we would like to believe to make us feel warm and fuzzy about what we do, to make us feel like some war is great and heroic. Word to the wise, no war is great and heroic, but we've managed to fool ourselves into thinking ti is. When man is in war he is as debased and vile as an animal, we (western society) have just found ways of removing ourselves from the killing so we can glorify things. Which is great if you're trying to combat PTSD, what better way really? Condition us to believe that we are different because we kill from a plane and that's different from shooting or bombing from the ground.

A great scene from Lawrence of Arabia (A good movie if you want to look at the schism between the cultures) the Turks are bombing the Arabs at their camp from planes and Prince Feisal is chasing the planes with his sword on horseback yelling "Cowards"
I've also read anecdotal accounts of Arab defences at Baghdad where they could nothing against american planes yelling the exact same thing.
I'm certain my grandfather felt the same way about the Germans during the blitz which prompted him to enlist, I'm also certain that people felt the same way in Dresden.

Rest assured the person being bombed from the air is just as vulnerable and defenceless by many accounts as the person being bombed from the ground.
Children will continue to die on both sides until people are truly objective and not just half objective about things that they want to be objective about, I concede that I'm not entirely there but I've made leaps and bounds but many (here, there and everywhere) are as muddled as the next.

 

[Britney Spears]

Respect/understand him and do your best to defeat him.  Disrespecting the foe and ignoring the reason that he fights is a good way to end up on the last chopper out of Saigon, and that is the mentality that I am seeing in some of the posts.

Since no one has yet offered a more acceptable (to us) course of action for the Palestinians to take, I must conclude that we are all equally filthy savages. Remember what I said about teenagers.....

 

[Infanteer]

Since no one has yet offered a more acceptable (to us) course of action for the Palestinians to take, I must conclude that we are all equally filthy savages. Remember what I said about teenagers.....

Quite so - until we have understood the Force and undertake the Principles of the Jedi Order, I have no faith in Mankind.... :warstory: