Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]

[brihard]

Generally industry hires people at pay rates that the local economy demands as well.

Hence why the coffee slingers in boom areas make a ton more money than those in bust areas. Which raises the COL. The CAF needs to take that into account when posting someone into these areas. We either need to provide the housing (PMQs) or provide a rate of pay or allowance that gives the member the ability to live in that area.

Yup, which CFHD, generally, seems to do. Some people will be upset about the way that it decreases with salary, but that’s a defensible policy given that these are taxpayer funds. Giving the same housing allowance to a Major that you do to a Corporal is very hard to justify.

 

[Lumber]

If you pulled the Canada.ca 1 Apr 2022 pay rates they are updated to include the pay raises since 1 Apr 2021.

The old rate(what I'm currently paid) for a PO1 SO3 is $7003 rather than the $7357 listed on the main site.

Ok All. Given this info, I'm going to use 2020 Pay rates as the baseline. If @Furniture was getting paid $7003 as an PO1 S03, that means the "current" pay scale is the 2020 pay scale. With a lower starting point, my initial calculation result in a lot more green, so stand by for DAMASS.

 

[Rifleman62]

I wish someone who has better Excel skills (and time) than I would make a spreadsheet comparing the gain/loss from HD vs PLD, by rank/spec. Have each Excel sheet be a rank, and list by location...

You would think that this was done, or should have been done before the announcement as well as considering Home Port/7 years.

 

[Quirky]

Hence why the coffee slingers in boom areas make a ton more money than those in bust areas. Which raises the COL. The CAF needs to take that into account when posting someone into these areas. We either need to provide the housing (PMQs) or provide a rate of pay or allowance that gives the member the ability to live in that area.

The solution is easy. Ensure people are taking home the same amount regardless of their posting location (changes to how we are taxed to a national rate) and have enough housing available for everyone that's priced the same nationwide. You wouldn't need a CFHD at that point.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Yup, which CFHD, generally, seems to do. Some people will be upset about the way that it decreases with salary, but that’s a defensible policy given that these are taxpayer funds. Giving the same housing allowance to a Major that you do to a Corporal is very hard to justify.

I don't think that part is unreasonable, just more the implementation means a lot of NCMs and Jr Officers will see an effective pay cut in a few very high COL areas, and the 7 year window doesn't make sense (especially with the cost savings if you aren't geographically moving someone during that time). Also seems like a stealth way to get people out of PMQs. The reduced rents are great, but if you are spending a lot on heating because the insulation sucks maybe it no longer makes sense if you can get CFHD by living on the market.

For something that took so long, this policy seems remarkably poorly thought out, and not well communicated. It should have come with a calculator so that anyone could pop in their current salary, PLD and living arrangements and see the impact for their particular situation.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I didn't think you got PLD on IR?

PLD is based on primary residence/D, HG & E location. Makes sense as taxes, assorted COL items, housing market etc would be where that is.

HD will be where the mbrs posting message say they is their duty location.

 

[QV]

Giving the same housing allowance to a Major that you do to a Corporal is very hard to justify.

Why? The major makes more than the corporal because that person is a major. If there is to be a housing allowance, it should be equal across rank structures in those affected regions. If everyone feels bad for the corporal only making corporal salary, well you have to start somewhere... if the base salary for the corporal is too low and needs to be raised, then the wage for higher ranks needs adjusting to keep the appropriate gap across levels of responsibility.

 

[brihard]

I don't think that part is unreasonable, just more the implementation means a lot of NCMs and Jr Officers will see an effective pay cut in a few very high COL areas, and the 7 year window doesn't make sense (especially with the cost savings if you aren't geographically moving someone during that time). Also seems like a stealth way to get people out of PMQs. The reduced rents are great, but if you are spending a lot on heating because the insulation sucks maybe it no longer makes sense if you can get CFHD by living on the market.

For something that took so long, this policy seems remarkably poorly thought out, and not well communicated. It should have come with a calculator so that anyone could pop in their current salary, PLD and living arrangements and see the impact for their particular situation.

Yup. The seven years is messed up: also the abruptness with which the system is changing is a real kick in the dick for some. If this had been in conjunction with a raise that truly reflected inflation/COL increases, ok, but it falls short of that.

PLD-CFHD is an overdue correction to a system whose wounds were allowed to fester. But comms and implementation have sucked.

 

[Lumber]

 

[Lumber]

 

[Lumber]

 

[Eaglelord17]

This would make it easier to move people, if housing is widely available. And mil housing needs to be at a significantly reduced rate or people would just buy on the economy. Make it worthwhile to live in the PMQs.

The problem is we divested much of the housing the CAF had back in the 90s and 2000s as the market was much lower. My preferred solution to all military housing issues is on base housing at a fixed percentage of your wage no matter what rank you are, no matter which base. If you choose to live off that, its on you.

To make that happen though would take some serious investment in infrastructure which they don't seem to want to make. Even if they did make it, your looking at years out to have those buildings completed. It should be a easy enough sell to the government, make a few billion dollar investment today and you get to save 150m each year, plus the CAF members would be paying rent to offset the cost of the buildings.

I don't think that part is unreasonable, just more the implementation means a lot of NCMs and Jr Officers will see an effective pay cut in a few very high COL areas, and the 7 year window doesn't make sense (especially with the cost savings if you aren't geographically moving someone during that time). Also seems like a stealth way to get people out of PMQs. The reduced rents are great, but if you are spending a lot on heating because the insulation sucks maybe it no longer makes sense if you can get CFHD by living on the market.

For something that took so long, this policy seems remarkably poorly thought out, and not well communicated. It should have come with a calculator so that anyone could pop in their current salary, PLD and living arrangements and see the impact for their particular situation.

7 year window is illogical, if rent is high year one, odds are rent is still going to be extremely high year 7. If it isn't they should be annually adjusting the rates. This is where PLD made a lot of sense as it was supposed to be adjusted regularly. Where the organization failed is we stopped adjusting.

If a no hook joins today, gets posted to say Esqumalt in 7 years when they are a two hook, they will no longer be receiving this benefit (very easy career path for many trades). They are basically saying you will make less as a two hook with 7 years in than as a no hook at that point. Just absolutely nonsensical.

Yup, which CFHD, generally, seems to do. Some people will be upset about the way that it decreases with salary, but that’s a defensible policy given that these are taxpayer funds. Giving the same housing allowance to a Major that you do to a Corporal is very hard to justify.

It is very defensible to apply the same allowance across the board. Unlike most civilian jobs where your only comparing the job on the local economy we compare it on a national scale. By not providing this benefit to Sr NCMs and Officers your directly disadvantaging them when they get posted to certain areas. PLD recognized this and was meant to provide a similar standard of living no matter where you were posted. Now there is 100% a financial incentive (or deterrent) to be posted to certain areas. If I was a Sr NCM and they pulled this stunt on me, I would be looking elsewhere. Which really hurts the CAF as that is a area we are severely lacking right now and is a area that cannot be easily replaced.

 

[brihard]

Why? The major makes more than the corporal because that person is a major. If there is to be a housing allowance, it should be equal across rank structures in those affected regions. If everyone feels bad for the corporal only making corporal salary, well you have to start somewhere... if the base salary for the corporal is too low and needs to be raised, then the wage for higher ranks needs adjusting to keep the appropriate gap across levels of responsibility.

Any Major will make at least significantly, and usually vastly more than any Cpl, CFHD and income offsets notwithstanding. Housing assistance isn’t a ‘gimme’, it’s a policy to protect recruiting and retention by protecting a member’s ability to have a basic, decent standard of living regardless of where CAF sends them. A brand new Maj makes $122k. They can afford to live on the economy, in any market, within their means so long as they make responsible decisions. A junior troop, without CFHD, in some places cannot, no matter how financially responsible they are. This policy corrects that.

I can speak from firsthand experience in an expensive market with income equivalent to a Maj. I neither need nor deserve taxpayer subsidy beyond my normal income, and neither do my economic equivalents in CAF. The situation is very different for the sigs Pte posted to Leitrim, the clerk Cpl sent to Esquimault, or the new sailor in Halifax. Canada needs to recruit and keep these people, especially those with difficult to replace technical skills. Housing costs and posting could force them out. It’s much less likely to do that to the Major who’s making $122-137k.

 

[Halifax Tar]

View attachment 76978

So I'm a PL 7 -> PI 3 in Halifax. If I read your sheet right that's +144 per month ?

Which is about what I expected.

 

[Lumber]

So I'm a PL 7 -> PI 3 in Halifax. If I read your sheet right that's +144 per month ?

Which is about what I expected.

Correct. You're current pay (based on 2020 pay scale) should be $7744. With PLD of 631, this gave you a Gross Pay of $8375.

Your base pay goes up to $8515 (an increase of $771 over the 2020 rate), but you lose PLD. This puts you in Pay Level 13.

CFHD in Halifax for someone at Pay Level 13 is $0. So your gross pay is just your base pay of $8515.

Compared to before, you are now making an additional $140/month, which all comes from the EI.

Now, if you factor in that you are moving from PI3 to PI4 at roughly the same time, then your pay will actually go up by $220 (the addition of both the overall EI increase and your increase from PI 3 to PI 4).

 

[Halifax Tar]

Correct. You're current pay (based on 2020 pay scale) should be $7744. With PLD of 631, this gave you a Gross Pay of $8375.

Your base pay goes up to $8515 (an increase of $771 over the 2020 rate), but you lose PLD. This puts you in Pay Level 13.

CFHD in Halifax for someone at Pay Level 13 is $0. So your gross pay is just your base pay of $8515.

Compared to before, you are now making an additional $140/month, which all comes from the EI.

Now, if you factor in that you are moving from PI3 to PI4 at roughly the same time, then your pay will actually go up by $220 (the addition of both the overall EI increase and your increase from PI 3 to PI 4).

Awesome! Thanks for your work!

 

[Remius]

Awesome! Thanks for your work!

So in your particular case is that good or bad thing?

 

[Halifax Tar]

So in your particular case is that good or bad thing?

Looks like a small pay bump...

@Lumber does your equation take into account for losing PLD ? If so I may actually be a loss.

As I said before. Aug 1 will be the tell for me.

 

[QV]

Any Major will make at least significantly, and usually vastly more than any Cpl, CFHD and income offsets notwithstanding. Housing assistance isn’t a ‘gimme’, it’s a policy to protect recruiting and retention by protecting a member’s ability to have a basic, decent standard of living regardless of where CAF sends them. A brand new Maj makes $122k. They can afford to live on the economy, in any market, within their means so long as they make responsible decisions. A junior troop, without CFHD, in some places cannot, no matter how financially responsible they are. This policy corrects that.

I can speak from firsthand experience in an expensive market with income equivalent to a Maj. I neither need nor deserve taxpayer subsidy beyond my normal income, and neither do my economic equivalents in CAF. The situation is very different for the sigs Pte posted to Leitrim, the clerk Cpl sent to Esquimault, or the new sailor in Halifax. Canada needs to recruit and keep these people, especially those with difficult to replace technical skills. Housing costs and posting could force them out. It’s much less likely to do that to the Major who’s making $122-137k.

A major is supposed to make more than a corporal. Simply temporarily closing the gap between the bottom and middle rung is not in my mind a sound policy. Either raise base rates, or more appropriately, pay allowances to all affected by the locale. A consistent approach would be far better, not this all over the map business.

I'm guessing this policy was chosen because they can address the biggest issue and reduce overall costs (which is at the expense of everyone else). I don't think this should be celebrated as a win.

 

[CountDC]

Any Major will make at least significantly, and usually vastly more than any Cpl, CFHD and income offsets notwithstanding. Housing assistance isn’t a ‘gimme’, it’s a policy to protect recruiting and retention by protecting a member’s ability to have a basic, decent standard of living regardless of where CAF sends them. A brand new Maj makes $122k. They can afford to live on the economy, in any market, within their means so long as they make responsible decisions. A junior troop, without CFHD, in some places cannot, no matter how financially responsible they are. This policy corrects that.

I can speak from firsthand experience in an expensive market with income equivalent to a Maj. I neither need nor deserve taxpayer subsidy beyond my normal income, and neither do my economic equivalents in CAF. The situation is very different for the sigs Pte posted to Leitrim, the clerk Cpl sent to Esquimault, or the new sailor in Halifax. Canada needs to recruit and keep these people, especially those with difficult to replace technical skills. Housing costs and posting could force them out. It’s much less likely to do that to the Major who’s making $122-137k.

that is part of the problem - PLD was to help the family continue with the standard of living they had instead of having to cut back on things making the "responsible decision". Perhaps what we need is a pay scale based on location the same as certain trades in the public service. Don't know how it looks now but as some civilians' I knew in Halifax pointed out to me years ago - a shipwright in Halifax was paid lower than their counter part in Victoria because at that time the COL was higher in Victoria. the difference in pay rate enabled them both to have the same approx QOL. Even taking a Maj from say Greenwood NS to Toronto can be a big affect on the families QOL so why shouldn't the Maj be protected the same as the Pte? They are both negatively impacted by the posting. Just because they may be able to absorb the loss better doesn't mean they should have to suffer it.

I don't see how anyone thinks this will help with retention especially the tech skills. The best I see is maybe helping with recruitment, the member gets established with the pay/allowances and education opps then jumps ship to the public world where they have full control of their life with no forced moves. It is the same old thing, we will recruit and not retain. Wonder why the middle is so hurting.