Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]

[Halifax Tar]

I saw that it disappears after 7 years, but where does it say that it scales down over time (not counting promotions)?

Generally people get promoted and gain higher IPCs over time.

 

[Underway]

You match checks out with my quick numbers as well... which should worry you, I'm not a mathmagician.

I think what a lot of people are missing, or not really weighing in the consideration of all of this is, cost of living went up a lot. People had likely hoped that the new EI and HD would make life easier for them, instead for some places like Esquimalt, it's simply changing the math on how they take home about the same amount of money...

Also, something I noticed in my read through, HD is 50% for CAF members who live together. I believe PLD was 75%, so for a service couple, HD is cutting even more from their pay...

Some are going to benifit a lot. The Jr Ranks mess on my ship are going to be extremely happy as they are the ones who are suffering the most. The Wardroom and CPO's likely not for themselves (but happy for their sailors).

 

[markppcli]

When I was a Pte, I couldn't afford a mortgage. That being said, when I was young (as most Ptes are) home ownership wasn't high on the priority list. Should the CAF ensure that "all new members with zero training and expertise are able to afford a mortgage to buy a home?"

I know you really need to burnish your "defender of the troops against the senior leaders who only wish to dine on their corpses" credentials here, but you should actually work for it instead of just hurling hyperbole at me for asking a straightforward question.

I think he was more pointing out that that hypothetical family is now facing a severe loss on income due to being in PMQs and will not be able to exit them… ever.

 

[Infanteer]

Some are going to benifit a lot. The Jr Ranks mess on my ship are going to be extremely happy as they are the ones who are suffering the most. The Wardroom and CPO's likely not for themselves (but happy for their sailors).

Damn those senior leaders for creating a benefit that advantages the junior ranks at the expense of those who make far more than the average Canadian annual income! Terrible!

 

[Furniture]

Some are going to benifit a lot. The Jr Ranks mess on my ship are going to be extremely happy as they are the ones who are suffering the most. The Wardroom and CPO's likely not for themselves (but happy for their sailors).

I'm happy for the Jr sailors who will benefit as well. I just wonder how long their happiness will last when promotions come with ever decreasing rewards, as the system strikes a balance between HD and base pay.

Also, how many will be happy when the POs and Officers decide to cash out their pensions and take jobs at FMF, or Lockheed, leaving them with a bunch of less experienced leaders who are getting bitter about not taking home much more than their Jr pers.?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

When I was a Pte, I couldn't afford a mortgage. That being said, when I was young (as most Ptes are) home ownership wasn't high on the priority list. Should the CAF ensure that "all new members with zero training and expertise are able to afford a mortgage to buy a home?"

Not everyone joins at 18. Some join with families, and spouses who have challenges finding decent employment. Or the other parent is at home with young kids. If they can't afford to live in an area for a 3-5 year posting, what do we expect them to do?

I know you really need to burnish your "defender of the troops against the senior leaders who only wish to dine on their corpses" credentials here, but you should actually work for it instead of just hurling hyperbole at me for asking a straightforward question.

I'd rather be on the side of "defender of the troops" as opposed to the "I was okay with the bus running some of them over" side.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Damn those senior leaders for creating a benefit that advantages the junior ranks at the expense of those who make far more than the average Canadian annual income! Terrible!

Something something, "principles of leadership." Something something "knowing your subordinates and promoting their welfare."

 

[Infanteer]

I think he was more pointing out that that hypothetical family is now facing a severe loss on income due to being in PMQs and will not be able to exit them… ever.

I'm seeing a lot of hypotheticals here. I'm not interested in hypotheticals. I'm looking for real examples of where CAF members, especially the junior ones who aren't making $90k+ a year, are going to be worse off because of the policy change. Is there someone like this? Serious question.

 

[markppcli]

Hope you ducked when what I was saying went over your head.

No, I think the example went over yours.

That hypothetical family would now stand to loose 800 a month in PLD. I had multiple young guys with families in the Qs when I was a section commander. It would bother me deeply to know they’re facing the loss of that benefit and now have to make hard choices. You already said you don’t understand “this pld thing” I assume this is an extension.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Damn those senior leaders for creating a benefit that advantages the junior ranks at the expense of those who make far more than the average Canadian annual income! Terrible!

If you're going to tow this line you have to tow the whole line.

It's temporary, as in it fades as one moves up through their career. And it dissapears after 7 years, if you haven't been geo graphically posted. Lots (Most ?) people will still be non spec Cpl/S1s at the 7 year mark. And you don't get it and you lose the existing PLD if you're you're in a Q. The 10% riase about cover my loss of PLD, but I'm a CPO2, not the S1 in a PMQ.

I can see why the JRs like this, now. I can also read the tea leaves and see this will be looked at in a different way in 7 years.

Two dates are going be big tells, Aug 1 pay drop and 2030. Aug 1 is going to be when those in my boat see the true value and make decisions. And 2030, the actual long term effect of this.

 

[Furniture]

I'm seeing a lot of hypotheticals here. I'm not interested in hypotheticals. I'm looking for real examples of where CAF members, especially the junior ones who aren't making $90k+ a year, are going to be worse off because of the policy change. Is there someone like this? Serious question.

So members who make $90K+, but far less than $120K+ don't matter?

Wasn't there a whole "missing middle" concern a few months back?

 

[markppcli]

I'm seeing a lot of hypotheticals here. I'm not interested in hypotheticals. I'm looking for real examples of where CAF members, especially the junior ones who aren't making $90k+ a year, are going to be worse off because of the policy change. Is there someone like this? Serious question.

I’ll try and have that nominal list for you in the morning.

As it stands I had… 3 maybe 4 guys in my old platoon that would have been in that “well there goes 680” camp. The new pay increase would be what? 300 for a Corporal give or take. So those guys would be facing 3600 a year in pay cuts. End of the world no, your kid not playing hockey anymore and not having a vacation that year.. probably.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

No, I think the example went over yours.

That hypothetical family would now stand to loose 800 a month in PLD. I had multiple young guys with families in the Qs when I was a section commander. It would bother me deeply to know they’re facing the loss of that benefit and now have to make hard choices. You already said you don’t understand “this pld thing” I assume this is an extension.

Not at all.......my point was an entry level job hasn't changed in 40 years. One couldn't afford a house in 1978 either.
Like any job you hope time in and promotion changes your 'status' level.

Hey, I want everyone to make great money, but reality is a slap to that idea....

 

[markppcli]

Not at all.......my point was an entry level job hasn't changed in 40 years. One couldn't afford a house in 1978 either.
Like any job you hope time in and promotion changes your 'status' level.

Hey, I want everyone to make great money, but reality is a slap to that idea....

Well actually now those promotions won’t help, as your CFHD will go down as your wage goes up.

The point that was a family, in the Qs, will loose their PLD regardless of rank. In the case of Edmonton and Esquimalt that will not be offset by the raise.

 

[Infanteer]

Not everyone joins at 18. Some join with families, and spouses who have challenges finding decent employment. Or the other parent is at home with young kids. If they can't afford to live in an area for a 3-5 year posting, what do we expect them to do?

True, and thats a structural thing as the CAF pretty much doesn't do lateral entries. So what are you suggesting? That somebody's entry level salary should be indexed to the age that they joined and their family situation?

I'd rather be on the side of "defender of the troops" as opposed to the "I was okay with the bus running some of them over" side.

Yeah, but for pages now you've simply been yelling at the clouds and haven't provided one example of who is getting run over by a bus. But you do you.

 

[Good2Golf]

They already get relief from RHU price. They can’t pay more than 25% of their gross salary in rent.

Also, @Eye In The Sky - the comparison would be if said family had to rent on the economy.

Compare an RHU price (which has no HD) to a 2-bedroom price but minus HD. If they did the math right, they should equal out.

I guess the bigger question here is whether the rates for RHUs are changing then? They used to be a set price, regardless of rank, for a type of place...and fluctuated depending on location and market rate. So is that all going out the window and only based on 25% (or less) of a member's gross monthly pay?

Except those people in RHUs who can't get / afford a mortgage....and who won't have a choice now.

…but not taking into account the shoddy sub-standard fit-out of the RHU’s antiquated infrastructure. My Q in St-Hubert had a brick and cast iron monster furnace with a gas conversion burner that cost an unbelievable 50% of the monthly rent in gas. I’d rather take the HD and rent on the economy.

 

[markppcli]

True, and thats a structural thing as the CAF pretty much doesn't do lateral entries. So what are you suggesting? That somebody's entry level salary should be indexed to the age that they joined and their family situation?



Yeah, but for pages now you've simply been yelling at the clouds and haven't provided one example of who is getting run over by a bus. But you do you.

I think the suggestion that the stipulation that those in PMQs are not eligible, and the 7 year cap, are going to result in substantial retention problems in the near and 5-10 year time frames is a very fair one.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

True, and thats a structural thing as the CAF pretty much doesn't do lateral entries. So what are you suggesting? That somebody's entry level salary should be indexed to the age that they joined and their family situation?

I'm suggesting some people are smart, will do their research and might not contact the CFRC if they think it might jeopardize their family.

Yeah, but for pages now you've simply been yelling at the clouds and haven't provided one example of who is getting run over by a bus. But you do you.

Ya, if only I'd given a possible example a few pages back....

Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]

You mean the current policy limiting RHU charges to no more than 25% of income? Lol oh snap! Man you're playing 4D chess and here I am playing checkers.

army.ca

*I forgot to include "in Esq in RHUs"...the RHU is the part I have the issue with.

 

[Infanteer]

So members who make $90K+, but far less than $120K+ don't matter?

Wasn't there a whole "missing middle" concern a few months back?

I used $90k as it was higher than the average annual income across all provinces across Canada, and thus less likely to be vulnerable to hard economic times.

 

[Underway]

I'm seeing a lot of hypotheticals here. I'm not interested in hypotheticals. I'm looking for real examples of where CAF members, especially the junior ones who aren't making $90k+ a year, are going to be worse off because of the policy change. Is there someone like this? Serious question.

Hence why I ran the numbers.

I can see why the JRs like this, now. I can also read the tea leaves and see this will be looked at in a different way in 7 years.

Two dates are going be big tells, Aug 1 pay drop and 2030. Aug 1 is going to be when those in my boat see the true value and make decisions. And 2030, the actual long term effect of this.

Depends on what rank you are in 7 years, it might have some or little effect. How long from a Pte to Sgt? What about Cpl for life? Do deployments matter in this? What about being posted around in the same location for multiple years. Can I get a posting to Esquimalt and then Victoria? What about Hamilton and then Toronto and still retain the benifit.

I'm still trying to figure out the Q's thing though. You lose CFHD when you are in Q's? And if you do you'll have to do the math if leaving the Q's allows you benifit more or less. If you only pay 25% max of your income is that going to help or hurt you if you lose CFHD. We need numbers and facts.

I'm going to work on a google sheet right now to get some answers.