Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]

[Humphrey Bogart]

Andrew Leslie weighs in!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1640754069936504841

 

[Furniture]

Are you discussing Lt or LtN? The former have a bunch of different scales for different entry plans and restrictions on the number of PIs despite the pay tables.

Lt(N), as Lumber is a navy I assumed he would understand, but I dodnt consider other readers. Mea culpa.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Andrew Leslie weighs in!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1640754069936504841

FTFY

Andrew Leslie weighs in for the win!

 

[Navy_Pete]

Would you feel the same way if from Lt basic to Cdr you barely received an increase in pay? As it currently stands, the difference between Lt basic to Lt PI10($2366) is greater than the pay difference between a Cpl basic and WO PI4($1853).

There really isn't much of a difference after taxes between a Maj and LCol pay considering the general big jump in responsibility, and for a lot of trades, complete change of focus.

Seems to be where a lot of the technical officer MOSIDs go from still technical to mostly management, and Maj pay is pretty good, so for a lot of people the pay isn't an incentive to go for that promotion. And if pay is the big driver, usually can translate that to civie jobs with higher ceilings, especially when you hit the magic 20 or 25 year mark for an annuity. Probably a good example of where people decide they make enough, like what they do, and don't want to get promoted, but don't want to put in an opt out as the institution is petty AF and still does punishment postings.

Personally still hanging around out of loyalty to the people (not the institution), which seems pretty common where people want to try and keep the people safe from the institution (ie operating equipment way outside the safety envelope for routine operations), but that has it's limits.

 

[Lumber]

Would you feel the same way if from Lt basic to Cdr you barely received an increase in pay? As it currently stands, the difference between Lt basic to Lt PI10($2366) is greater than the pay difference between a Cpl basic and WO PI4($1853).

Yes.

Some people (most NWOs at least, I would argue) like doing work that is challenging and takes advantage of their skills and experience.

In the NWO world, you stay as a Lt(N) for a long time (even a top performing NWO will be a Lt(N) for at least 7+years), which means by the time you're actually eligible for promotion, you've amassed the experience and developed the skills needed to be a LCdr. I.e. you're ready to be a LCdr, and you know it.

By the time you became a "senior Lt(N)", you had a good understanding of what LCdr jobs entail and what type of work they do on a day-to-day basis. Many of us at that stage were regularly filling in for LCdrs (since the Navy is so short).

SO, yes, if someone asked me if I'd rather stay as Lt(N) with less responsibility doing Lt(N) jobs, or go LCdr with more responsibility doing LCdr jobs but make the same money (or not much more money), I'd have chosen to get promoted, because I like the work that LCdrs are expected to do, and it allows me to use my knowledge and experience more so that the Lt(N) jobs.

Edit: this is True up to about Capt(N). I have spoken with a lot of people (current and former senior naval officers) who have said that while the jobs that Capt(N)s do are all very rewarding, the workload is just unbelievable and the stress and strain on family is not worth what they are paid. I spoke with a Cmdre at a mess dinner who proudly told me about how many times he slept in his office and had his wife bring him supper when he was a 4-ringer in Ottawa. Like... ok, so call it quits after a CO tour, is that what you're saying? No, he was proud of it.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

There really isn't much of a difference after taxes between a Maj and LCol pay considering the general big jump in responsibility, and for a lot of trades, complete change of focus.

Seems to be where a lot of the technical officer MOSIDs go from still technical to mostly management, and Maj pay is pretty good, so for a lot of people the pay isn't an incentive to go for that promotion. And if pay is the big driver, usually can translate that to civie jobs with higher ceilings, especially when you hit the magic 20 or 25 year mark for an annuity. Probably a good example of where people decide they make enough, like what they do, and don't want to get promoted, but don't want to put in an opt out as the institution is petty AF and still does punishment postings.

Personally still hanging around out of loyalty to the people (not the institution), which seems pretty common where people want to try and keep the people safe from the institution (ie operating equipment way outside the safety envelope for routine operations), but that has it's limits.

If your concerned about money, there is a pretty distinctive intersection point of your Military Career when you need to make a decision whether or not you want to jump ship to the private sector or not.

It looks like this in its simplest form:



Your top end earners in the Private Sector are going to make way more than any Public Sector earner ever would. So if money is your concern Private Sector may be the way to go. BUT....

It depends on your age.

The only good age for applying for a job is 35, according to a former Amazon recruiter. 'Otherwise you're too old and overqualified or you're too young and under-qualified' | Business Insider India

Research shows people over 50 have a harder time finding work. Here, career experts share tips on how older workers can get noticed by recruiters.

www.businessinsider.in

 

[CountDC]

Aren't we supposed to be under a glacier by 2030?

What Glacier? They all melting. If you don't know how to swim better start practicing. Water World is coming real.

Not sure what a relocation costs CAF these days, but that will be a second order effect in half a decade. Naval types- if a sailor wants to swap coasts, is that reasonably easy for them to get? Would navy resist that, or alternatively just quietly make it an accepted practice to preserve CFHD allowance?

Depends on the Type of Move. CFM lists this years Inside Canada moves for D Mil C at $45,675, DSA $55, 490.

 

[Navy_Pete]

If your concerned about money, there is a pretty distinctive intersection point of your Military Career when you need to make a decision whether or not you want to jump ship to the private sector or not.

It looks like this in its simplest form:

View attachment 77019

Your top end earners in the Private Sector are going to make way more than any Public Sector earner ever would. So if money is your concern Private Sector may be the way to go. BUT....

It depends on your age.

The only good age for applying for a job is 35, according to a former Amazon recruiter. 'Otherwise you're too old and overqualified or you're too young and under-qualified' | Business Insider India

Research shows people over 50 have a harder time finding work. Here, career experts share tips on how older workers can get noticed by recruiters.

www.businessinsider.in

I think that's where the benefit of the immediate annuity at 20 or 25 years extends us a bit; 40-50% of a decent salary on top of another salary gives you a lot more options to have a comparable/increased pay.

I think, depending on spending habits and expectations, you can hit an income of 'enough' so anything beyond that is gravy. With the CoL that keeps going up, but I'm not personnally chasing that top 1%. But when you start looking at the actual job you are doing, and realize you could get paid more for less BS not working in the CAF, and if that happens after you hit the annuity point for a bit of a safety net, staying in uniform definitely becomes less attractive. Few years to go for me before I hit 25, but I think I'm at the threshold where I've had enough of the CAF and planning ahead so that I will be competitive in the private sector by getting some additional recognized qualifications around work I already do.

Unfortunately for the CAF, there are a lot of trades where you can transition like that if you plan ahead a bit, with companies deliberately targetting us as a manning pool to make that transition and qualification for things like Red Seals or other professional delegations easier. I think the CAF and GoC has spent the last few decades in the 'FA' stage and is now moving to the 'finding out' portion of the evening.

 

[Quirky]

But when you start looking at the actual job you are doing, and realize you could get paid more for less BS not working in the CAF, and if that happens after you hit the annuity point for a bit of a safety net, staying in uniform definitely becomes less attractive.

I don't know why you would, unless there were geographical or family related reasons.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I don't know why you would, unless there were geographical or family related reasons.

Career goals I guess? I've hit mine, but some of the big ones can take 20+ years to get to, even for streamers.

 

[Lumber]

If your concerned about money, there is a pretty distinctive intersection point of your Military Career when you need to make a decision whether or not you want to jump ship to the private sector or not.

It looks like this in its simplest form:

View attachment 77019

Your top end earners in the Private Sector are going to make way more than any Public Sector earner ever would. So if money is your concern Private Sector may be the way to go. BUT....

It depends on your age.

The only good age for applying for a job is 35, according to a former Amazon recruiter. 'Otherwise you're too old and overqualified or you're too young and under-qualified' | Business Insider India

Research shows people over 50 have a harder time finding work. Here, career experts share tips on how older workers can get noticed by recruiters.

www.businessinsider.in

Nice! I jumped ship just after my 35th birthday! (also, this is graph is essentially what happened non-visually in my head that led me to my decision to split)

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

No, but it’s a false comparison. A benefit languishing for 15 years like that in a unionized environment is unlikely. Also, this was employer driven, not union. I expect my union to try to get as much total compensation for me as possible in the circumstances. But I expect CAF as an employer and as a prolific spender of public funds to try to do so responsibly. As someone pointed out to me elsewhere, PLD/CFHD aren’t pay; they’re allowances. I’m live to this- and the purpose of this allowance is to make certain postings livable at a basic standard; equity up to a certain bare livable minimum, as opposed to equality.

My point re: Unions was directed at the certain subsection of employees in the CAF that are so blinded by the institution that they would
feverishly try and "sell" this as a good deal while also being ok with some of their fellow employees being screwed over in the process.

You are correct though that the CAF had years to solve this and didn't. It might be time for the rank & file of the CAF to consider a Union for this very reason.

If the RCMP can do it.... then why not?

If CFHD had emerged onto a blank slate, it wouldn’t be too bad- though the 7 years limit still has to go, instead going with continuing proof of rent or mortgage payments. Because it’s replacing PLD, high just Oprahed cash on everyone, it obviously comes up short for many impacted at higher income levels. But- had PLD been properly revisited, a bunch of people would have lost money anyway.

As I see it, this is designed to promote recruiting and protect retention. Retention of trades that face significant manning shortfalls in high cost of housing areas is the metric to measure this against. (I’ve kept using ‘cost of living’, sorry- @ballz called me on that. This is a housing benefit.)

But it's detrimental to areas with the highest cost of living as those pers are getting less money than they were previously getting, even with a pay raise.

IMO this policy is entirely designed around recruitment at the expense of retention.
 

I stand by my belief that it was disingenuous to roll this out at the same time as the lay raise. I also believe the sun-inflation pay raise is inadequate. Both of those facts have obfuscated the CFHD discussion. Essentially CAF has said “we’re gonna let everyone’s pay shrink a bit through inflation, and pay a housing allowance on a needs basis”. The first part of that I’m not cool with.

You don't save money while simultaneously trying to say your improving the financial health of your employees

 

[PPCLI Guy]

I don't know why you would, unless there were geographical or family related reasons.

I jumped after 32 years in the Reg F....and 40 yrs total. Two main reasons: a 37 year warranty on my body; and complete lack of job satisfaction due to the role I was required to play. Now quite a bit happier.....and the money is fine too

 

[Eye In The Sky]

There is no “pay raise”. It was an economic increase. There is no pay raise happening. I think it’s important for people to remember the difference.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

There is no “pay raise”. It was an economic increase. There is no pay raise happening.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

A couple of years ago, I would have been furious had someone proposed the idea of a Union for the Armed Forces and called it preposterous.

Now, I'm not as certain it's as crazy an idea as I once thought.

Seems, neither are others:

 

[Halifax Tar]

A couple of years ago, I would have been furious had someone proposed the idea of a Union for the Armed Forces and called it preposterous.

Now, I'm not as certain it's as crazy an idea as I once thought.

Seems, neither are others:

View attachment 77022

We definitely need some form of better representation and ability to bargain. The current people doing this for us seem to be duds.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Thankfully, MPs haven’t received a pay raise since before the pandemic and COL increases. They are feeling the pinch like the rest of us.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Thankfully, MPs haven’t received a pay raise since before the pandemic and COL increases. They are feeling the pinch like the rest of us.

You trying to make me throw my phone ? Lol

 

[dapaterson]

Given the level of responsibility differences, I can't see good result for any RCMP / CAF comparison.

In the current CAF compensation model, RCMP officers on patrol would be tax free...