Alleged police attack may nix soldier's Afghan tour

[Occam]

Let the courts decide if the officers actions were correct, but with investigations against LEO's the investigation will always err on the side of caution and lay charges so the courts can decide innocence or guilt.  This will shut up  the "anti-law enforcement" special intrest groups and their supporters.

I don't know how much clearer I can make it for you.  I usually support the police, and I have members of my family in law enforcement.

I am not a member of any "anti-law enforcement" special interest group.

I am, however, a member of "Canadians against LEOs who think they're above the law" special interest groups. 

I, too, await the outcome of the court trial.  This incident was under a microscope;  I have serious doubts that charges would be laid if there were no realistic prospect of conviction, but we'll see.

 

[mariomike]

Let the courts decide if the officers actions were correct, but with investigations against LEO's the investigation will always err on the side of caution and lay charges so the courts can decide innocence or guilt.  This will shut up  the "anti-law enforcement" special intrest groups and their supporters.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2003/11/05/to_vassdecision20031105.html

I agree with you, WR. For what it's worth, a complaint was also filed against Ambulance New Brunswick over its handling of this call. We got sent into violence all the time. Especially the "MHA's", or as we call them "possible 211's". Sometimes they have to be restrained. Positional Asphyxia is a concern:
http://www.charlydmiller.com/LIB02/2002jems.html

re: Positional Asphyxia:
http://www.charlydmiller.com/LIB02/2003jemsrestrainttricks.html#straight

Thanks for the link to the Otto Vass death at College and Lansdowne. I remember reading about it in the news. The four Metro officers were taken off regular duty for over three years. And even then, quoted from the link you posted, "While the four officers are now cleared of all criminal charges, their legal problems are not over. Vass's family has filed a multi-million dollar civil lawsuit against the officers and the police force."
Some other lawsuits against the City of Toronto, if interested:
http://www.thestar.com/News/article/190767
http://www.thestar.com/News/article/185690
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2009/07/06/police-lawsuit.html


[Edits at request of poster (in yellow):]

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Yes, minus a few debilitating injuries. Potentially tour ending injuries. And taking 4 hard knee blows to the spine is no joke.

Those 4 knee strikes were bullshit, plain and simple.

That a soldier can't do what he is told when a person in authority is giving him direction strikes me as bullshit.  I think Chris Rock sums it up best. 

The part of the new story that is missing is why it took this long to lay charges.  The facts have stood since July, yet now they are laying charges?  That smells more political and less judicial. 

 

[Occam]

That a soldier can't do what he is told when a person in authority is giving him direction strikes me as bullshit.

We don't know what the soldier was told by the police.  We don't know if he was told if he was under arrest, we don't know if he was told why he was being detained.  You're merely speculating.  What we do know is that there were more than a couple of independent, uninvolved witnesses who said they didn't see anything to indicate that the soldier was resisting, or taking any aggressive action.  We'll see how well the witnesses stand up in court, as well as the witnesses who offered alibis for the alleged incident the week before.

The part of the new story that is missing is why it took this long to lay charges.  The facts have stood since July, yet now they are laying charges?  That smells more political and less judicial.

What raised my eyebrow was the order in which the charges were laid.  Why wouldn't they have laid all of the charges related to the incident on the same day?  I have my own suspicions on that, but I'll keep them to myself.

 

[SupersonicMax]

-knee strikes are a universally taught technique for defensive tactics

How is a 4v1 fight, the 4 being on top of the guy, a defensive position?

Defensive tactics should be used in defensive positions.  Not offensive.

 

[medaid]

WR, ZC and Bruce,

We should stop trying to defend and educate the sheeple to the actions/inactions of our LEO brethren.

Especially when the attempts fall on def ears and closed minded know it alls. I sipimly love the duality of it all. When people speak against the CF we band together and accuse them of ignorance, get pissed because of thei closed mindedness, and then act like we know it all. We then become indignant when the same idiots tell us how to do our jobs and criticize us for our incompetence.

I just find it all very entertaining when those of us who tell people to "STFU" about things they don't know, can't seem to follow their own advice. It happens all the time on here. Right or wrong is not your place to say. Having friends or family members does not equate to personal experience.

4v1 is nothing. I've been in on 6v1 because the person's fighting so much and so hard.

Please people... Take your own advice if you've just got an opinion and no background. You're sounding like an uneducated civilian.

 

[SupersonicMax]

If your team has an advantage over the other team, then, in my mind, you are offensive.  Judging from the video, the cops were in an obvious offensive position. 

According to WR, the knees in the back is a defensive "tactic".  Why use a defensive tactic in an offensive situation?

 

[medaid]

Why ask a rhetorical question?

 

[Occam]

WR, ZC and Bruce,

We should stop trying to defend and educate the sheeple to the actions/inactions of our LEO brethren.

Especially when the attempts fall on def ears and closed minded know it alls. I sipimly love the duality of it all. When people speak against the CF we band together and accuse them of ignorance, get pissed because of thei closed mindedness, and then act like we know it all. We then become indignant when the same idiots tell us how to do our jobs and criticize us for our incompetence.

I just find it all very entertaining when those of us who tell people to "STFU" about things they don't know, can't seem to follow their own advice. It happens all the time on here. Right or wrong is not your place to say. Having friends or family members does not equate to personal experience.

4v1 is nothing. I've been in on 6v1 because the person's fighting so much and so hard.

Please people... Take your own advice if you've just got an opinion and no background. You're sounding like an uneducated civilian.

I hate to burst your bubble, but pay attention:

I haven't speculated on anything of which I don't have first hand knowledge.  I offered the fact that I have family members who are LEOs to counter the ludicrous claims that I'm anti-police.

It was put forward that:

-do not resist when given direction from a LEO
-if you do resist expect force to be used

I posted information about a recent incident where the individual did not resist, and still had the living crap beat out of him and a news release was issued stating that the individual resisted arrest (a blatant lie) - and to top it off, they didn't even have the right guy.  I don't need to be a LEO to be able to tell you that WR's summary was of absolutely no use to the young soldier.  Compliance does not guarantee you're not going to end up looking like this.

I have nothing but respect for the vast majority of LEOs who do their job in demanding circumstances.  I have no respect for the dirty cops who can't keep from running afoul of the very law they're supposed to uphold.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

All the arm chair quarterbacks can just kick back and chill. Save it for the big game tomorrow.

The LEOs here have tried to explain the whys and wherefores. Most people get it, but some just can't help slagging LEOs without cause or justification, especially in the absence of first hand experience, in the matter at hand, or a judgement by the court.

Until such time as the court has made clear what happened, and who, if anyone, may be guilty, you can all go practice second guessing something, or someone, else.

If anything official comes out and needs to be posted, send it to a Mod.

Locked

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[George Wallace]

From another member:

Update:

Article link
Paramedic testifies at officer's assault trial

New evidence introduced


Last Updated: Thursday, November 4, 2010 | 5:26 PM AT
CBC News

A paramedic testifying at the assault trial of a Fredericton police officer says he saw a Quebec soldier get kneed by a police officer outside a nightclub in July 2009.

Edward Johnson was testifying at the trial of Const. Stephen Stafford, who is accused of using excessive force while arresting Luc Begin outside the Sweetwaters nightclub on July 18, 2009.

Begin, a soldier from Valcartier, Que., was teaching at the infantry school at CFB Gagetown when he was arrested while off duty outside the downtown Fredericton nightclub.

Johnson told the court he and his partner were parked outside Sweetwaters in the early morning hours of July 18 when he saw police officers escorting a man towards the sidewalk. There was a commotion, Johnson said, and when he looked back the officers and the man were on the ground.

Johnson said he saw Begin get hit by knee strikes two or three times.

He also testified he and his partner were later called to police headquarters to treat an unresponsive man in a cell who turned out to be Begin.

He told the court Begin woke up in the back of the ambulance and refused treatment. When Begin was told he would not be allowed to leave, Johnson said, he laid back down and closed his eyes.

Johnson said Begin was then returned to custody.

Trial faced delays

The trial was adjourned for several hours on Thursday morning after new videos were introduced into evidence.

Begin is facing two counts of obstructing justice stemming from an incident on July 10, 2009 — eight days before the alleged assault — for allegedly jumping on a police car outside the Sweetwaters nightclub.

On Thursday, the lawyer representing Begin in that case came forward to the Crown, saying he had video footage of the incident. The Crown said the video may be relevant to this case.

The trial was adjourned while the Crown and defence reviewed the video, but resumed with the video being introduced into evidence and played in the courtroom.

The Crown consented to having the video played, but reserved the right to dispute their authenticity if questions arise later in the trial.

The Crown had expressed concerns the videos had been editited and their authenticity had not been verified.

The video, a black and white interior camera view of the inside of the Sweetwater's, shows Begin exiting the bar while holding hands with his girlfriend. The timestamp on the video indicated it was taken just after 2 a.m. MT in the early morning hours of July 10.

2 fractured vertebrae

On Wednesday, Begin testified two police officers approached him when he was refused entry to Sweetwaters nightclub on July 18.

Officers said a bouncer recognized Begin from the incident the week before when someone had jumped on a police cruiser, something Begin denied doing or having knowledge of.

Begin said two officers then led him toward a police cruiser, when a third came up behind him and kicked him in the calf. Begin said he fell to the ground and all he remembers is being beaten and his head hitting the pavement.

Begin told the court he went to hospital after being released from jail and found he had two fractured vertebrae.

Part of the incident was captured on video and posted to YouTube by local blogger Charles LeBlanc.

This story is now closed to commenting

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/new-brunswick/story/2010/11/04/nb-officer-soldier-assault-trial.html#ixzz17jVNK8EC

 

[Good2Golf]

From another member
----------------------------------------

Officer says he feared for his safety

Michael Staples, The Daily Gleaner
Friday February 18th, 2011
Article link

A Fredericton police officer says he feared for his safety the night he arrested Luc Begin in front of a downtown nightclub.

"It was very scary, very stressful - just a very intense situation," Const. Stephen Stafford testified Thursday at his assault trial in Fredericton.

Stafford, a four-year veteran of the force, is charged with the July 18, 2009, assault of Begin, 28, an infantry soldier with Quebec's Royal 22nd Regiment from Canadian Forces Base Valcartier.

The alleged incident occurred outside of Sweetwaters on King Street, now known as iRock.

Part of the arrest was captured on videotape by Fredericton blogger Charles Leblanc and posted on YouTube. It shows a police officer kneeing a man in the back while he's on the ground and being placed under arrest.

Stafford told the court he had no choice but to use knee strikes on Begin but was adamant that he never intended to strike his back or to cause him injury.

The former member of the Calgary Police Service said he was trying to get Begin to put his hands behind his back so he could be handcuffed.

Instead of complying, Begin clasped his hands in front of himself and became rigid, Stafford said under direct examination by defence lawyer T.J. Burke.

Stafford said when he arrived on the scene that night, he assessed the threat level and was concerned by what was going on.

Stafford said Const. Fred Loiseau was telling Begin he was under arrest for obstruction - connected to an incident a week earlier in which he allegedly walked over Loiseau's patrol car - and was asking for identification.

"Mr. Begin was answering ... 'No it's not me. I didn't do anything.'''

Stafford said Begin was also swearing at the officer.

He said Begin's non-compliance led to Loiseau grabbing one of Begin's arms and an auxiliary constable taking the other. They moved towards a patrol car, he said.

As the situation unfolded, Stafford said, he felt Begin was beginning to overpower the two officers.

The crowd was also yelling, "Let him go."

"At that point, I made the decision Mr. Begin had to be taken to the ground," Stafford said.

He told the court he walked up behind Begin, put a hand on his face and used the grip to turn his head.

"I delivered a kick to the left calf in an effort to have him fall to the ground."

The move was successful as everyone dropped. Stafford said he was in the area of Begin's midsection.

He said he heard the crowd continue to roar at them.

"I began to be scared," Stafford said. "I thought someone was going to jump on my back ... I was fearful the situation was deteriorating quickly."

While on the ground with Begin, Stafford said, he tried different techniques to have him release his frontal grip, but when all else failed, the decision was made to use knee strikes.

The upper leg and lower buttock area were the targets, he said.

"After I delivered the third knee strike, his grasp broke free."

Stafford said he was never taught while training with the Calgary Police Service to focus on the back, but he learned from his instructors that unintended strikes could happen.

Under cross-examination by Crown prosecutor Gabriel Bourgeois, Stafford admitted he was never asked by Loiseau to get involved that night or to take down Begin.

Cross-examination of Stafford is scheduled to continue this morning.

Earlier, Cpl. Rick Turnbull, an expert on the use of force with RCMP J Division, told the court that he and Crown witness Sgt. Rick Walkinshaw, his counterpart from Nova Scotia, agreed to disagree about their assessments of the July 18, 2009, incident.

Turnbull, although the Crown argued against it, was declared an expert on use of force by the court.

Turnbull said he was asked by the investigating officer to examine the file and the video of the Begin incident but was never requested to write a report on his findings.

"I felt Const. Stafford's available options were essentially limited to knee strikes" for his own safety, Turnbull said.

Under cross-examination by prosecutor Jeff Mockler, Turnbull dismissed a suggestion that he had an inordinate interest in the case because he wasn't asked to be a Crown witness.

 

[Good2Golf]

and another recent article passed from another member
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


Officer's assault trial adjourned until April

Michael Staples, The Daily Gleaner
Saturday February 19th, 2011
Article link

The assault trial of a Fredericton police constable has been adjourned until April.

Judge Geri Mahoney granted the postponement Friday in the case of Stephen Stafford following 10 days of testimony.

The trial was initially adjourned in November and resumed this week.

Stafford is charged with assaulting Luc Begin, while trying to arrest the Quebec-based infantry soldier July 18, 2009, outside Sweetwaters bar on King Street, now called iRock.

Part of the incident was captured on video by a local blogger who posted it on YouTube. It shows a police officer kneeing a man in the back while the suspect is on the ground.

Mahoney said the job of the court is to determine if Stafford used reasonable force on the night in question and that process will continue on April 1.

Defence lawyer T.J. Burke has one more witness to call before proceedings move into the final argument stage.

During testimony Friday, Staff Sgt. Chris Butler, a use-of-force expert with the Calgary Police Service, told the court that Stafford's actions on the night of the arrest were consistent with standards and training.

Butler testified that when a suspect is taken to the ground it is essential to get control of the person's hands because they could be used for an attack or assault.

Butler said it's important for situations, such as what occurred outside of Sweetwaters, to be quickly brought under control because the longer it goes on the more inflamed a crowd can become.

"Knee strikes are just one component of an officer's tool box,'' he said.

He said such strikes are usually delivered to the nerve motor centres down the leg, on back of the leg, or in the buttocks area.

If a suspect is already on the ground, Butler said, the need for knee strikes would depend on the perception of risk.

But, he said, the idea is to avoid the head, neck, spine and groin.

Butler, who examined the case, including the video, said the role of a cover officer, which Stafford was performing that night, is to assess what's going on and determine the risk.

Stafford told the court Thursday that he felt the situation with Begin was deteriorating and he made the decision to take him to the ground. That resulted in the need to use knee strikes on him in an effort to gain control of his hands, Stafford said.

The constable testified he was aiming for other areas of the body and didn't intend to knee Begin in the back or cause him injury.

Butler told the court how he was once hit on the head by his partner's baton when they were attempting to break up a Calgary bar fight.

"Unintended outcomes? They are very common," he said.

Butler said he saw a "measured use of force" applied by Stafford to get control of Begin's hands and the situation was brought under control.

Under cross-examination by Crown prosecutor Gabriel Bourgeois, Butler admitted, through his examination of the video, that things could have been handled better. He said the two officers with Stafford that night were jumping around too much after Begin was taken down, leaving Stafford on his own.

"Tactically, it would have been better (to have) worked in concert with Const. Stafford.''

Had that happened, he said, knee strikes could have been avoided.

Burke told reporters his client is holding up well.

"Steve is a strong individual," he said. "He sleeps with a clear conscious at night. As the evidence has stipulated, he didn't intend to strike the individual in the back."

Burke said what's difficult about the Stafford case is whenever people see an individual use force, they're repulsed.

"That, in itself, has provided some challenges in establishing the human aspects of policing and the training that they receive and why they receive that type of training," Burke said. "Establishing a foundation takes time, not to mention that the Crown did take close to seven days of presenting evidence. I thought getting to where we are at this point in time, that we made some pretty good headway."

Burke said the video has played an important role in the case and may eventually be used by police experts to demonstrate what the appropriate techniques are and what they aren't.

 

[Good2Golf]

From a forum member:

_________________________

Former soldier claiming assault by Fredericton police officer pleads guilty to mischief
The Canadian Press: Wednesday, May 25, 2011
(article link)

FREDERICTON - A former soldier whose arrest led to an assault charge against a Fredericton police officer has pleaded guilty to two charges.

Luc Begin, who was a private in the Canadian Forces at the time, has been given a conditional discharge and 12 months of probation for an incident July 11, 2009.

Court was told he walked across a police cruiser in Fredericton's nightclub district and fled from a police officer.

The Ontario native pleaded guilty to charges of mischief and obstructing a police officer - four other charges were withdrawn.

Meanwhile, a judge is set to rule June 6 on the charge of assault pending against Const. Stephen Stafford, who helped arrest Begin.

The arrest took place July 18, 2009.

 

[Scott]

From a forum member:



http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/story/2011/06/06/nb-stafford-verdict-1033.html

June 6, 2011
Fredericton officer found not guilty of assault
By CBC News

Fredericton Police officer Stephen Stafford found not guilty on assault charge involving arrest of soldier Luc Begin in the summer of 2009.

Stafford was accused of using excessive force against Luc Begin, an off-duty soldier, during an arrest outside a Fredericton nightclub

A bystander filmed Stafford kneeing Begin in the back several times.

Begin was being arrested and Stafford told the court in February 2011 he was trying to help other officers in a dangerous situation.

Stafford testified he had been driving by Sweetwaters club when he noticed another patrol car parked at an unusual angle over the curb. He stopped his car and walked toward the crowd, which he described as agitated.

During his trial, an expert from the Atlantic Police Academy said Stafford used the amount of force that is consistent with national training guidelines and local guidelines.

Begin, a soldier from Valcartier, Que., was in the Fredericton area in July 2009 to teach at the infantry school at CFB Gagetown.

He testified in the fall that he had two fractured vertebrae after the incident.

Begin pleaded guilty last month two two charges of obstruction of justice related to a previous night.

He was given a conditional discharge and 12 months probation.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Now that the trials are over I've unlocked this........................

During his trial, an expert from the Atlantic Police Academy said Stafford used the amount of force that is consistent with national training guidelines and local guidelines.

.......................and, of course to say I [we] told you so.

Bruce

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Now that the trials are over I've unlocked this........................


.......................and, of course to say I [we] told you so.

Bruce

Oh, I so wanted to do that first 8)

 

[Occam]

So, this officer wasn't credible?

Earlier in the day, Judge Geri Mahoney ruled that testimony given in a voir dire by Sgt. Rick Walkinshaw, an RCMP use of force training officer, was admissible.

The expert acknowledged that Stafford may not have realized he was kneeing the back during the heat of the moment.

But he said the idea is for police officers to be as accurate as they can with a view to causing the least amount of injury.

He said he found the three knee strikes to Begin's back troubling.

I can't say I'm surprised at the verdict.  It would appear that I have a lot of company.

 

[Container]

So, this officer wasn't credible?

Earlier in the day, Judge Geri Mahoney ruled that testimony given in a voir dire by Sgt. Rick Walkinshaw, an RCMP use of force training officer, was admissible.

The expert acknowledged that Stafford may not have realized he was kneeing the back during the heat of the moment.

But he said the idea is for police officers to be as accurate as they can with a view to causing the least amount of injury.

He said he found the three knee strikes to Begin's back troubling.

I can't say I'm surprised at the verdict.  It would appear that I have a lot of company.

Expert evidence is opinion evidence and is weighed by the judge. A resume is entered and questions and answers from defense and crown, that can sometimes last for hours, are all used before someone is determined to be an expert. Often two experts will testify and the judge will decide which opinion is MORE credible since all expert opinion is based on training and experience. Training and experience above and beyond what the lay person would have.

It is not unusual for experts to disagree and to testify for hours or even days. It is completely impossible for you based off this little blurb, or the media since they are comepletly out of the loop on the subject matter, to determine which use of force expert had the more complete opinion. The usage of "troubling" in the article does not give us context as most police officers will tell you any use of force looks bad and never seems as smooth as the movies.

Expert evidence is a tricky area and alot of times, like the OJ trial, the judge will make decisions that demonstrate that they didn't really understand the opinion. Or that, which seems to be more likely, they fancy themselves experts on everything under the sun.

*edited to be more polite- it was impolite by accident*

 

[Fishbone Jones]

So, this officer wasn't credible?

Earlier in the day, Judge Geri Mahoney ruled that testimony given in a voir dire by Sgt. Rick Walkinshaw, an RCMP use of force training officer, was admissible.

The expert acknowledged that Stafford may not have realized he was kneeing the back during the heat of the moment.

But he said the idea is for police officers to be as accurate as they can with a view to causing the least amount of injury.

He said he found the three knee strikes to Begin's back troubling.

I can't say I'm surprised at the verdict.  It would appear that I have a lot of company.

I can't say I'm suprised by your disbelief either. You're just like those liberals that can't believe they lost and nothing will convince them they screwed themselves while they try convince themselves they're still right and the NGP. :facepalm: