Alleged police attack may nix soldier's Afghan tour

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Circle the wagons I guess,.....police people who dare to question LEO/CO conduct intruders into our world. :


See what I did there?

Made a fool of yourself?        Oh,......you meant the other thing.

Yup, I see it and yes, probably a little. However just as I have NEVER armchair quarterbacked something that happened over there, I am a bit touchy when the same is not recipricated I guess.

Bottom line is that video is exactly what I would expect, and want, to see happen outside a bar, late at night with drunken people mulling around,.....swift and, if required, brutal.  The only thing I would have done *different [in 20/20 hind vision] is got his ass in the back of the car and away from the scene a lot of faster in order to keep things quiet.

* Bearing in mind that I am not a Cop nor play one on TV.

 

[Kat Stevens]

So far in one thread I'm a fool and a clown.  Guess you win, 2-1 in overtime at the name calling game.  I intentionally withheld any opinions in this thread.

 

[chris_log]

Nope,................I also explained why we knee in the back when the arms are tucked under, did Piper [and others] read that before his "brutal" comment?
Of course not.

Oh come on.

Did you not read my post? I agree with the officer's actions one hundred percent. All I was saying was that getting kneed in the back in brutal, it hurts like hell and can really mess you up (it's happened to me, I was walking odd for a week). And again, had you read my post you'd see that I said that the officer was in the right doing what he did. The guy was continually yanking his hands back underneath his body each time the officer tried to restrain him, so the police officer did what he was trained to do. I doubt we'll see much else come out of this as far as the cops getting charged.

Did it make you feel like a man or what? In this thread you were sounding reasonable and responsible then you fall back to your regular ole self and say this asinine statement. It was good to see the same Piper we know come out...

Did you not notice the smiley thingy? Trying to inject some humour in a thread where people's posts are rapidly heading downhill.

And for the record, the guy punched me in the face, so ya, I did feel good doing it. And even better when the local police dragged him off.

Bottom line is that video is exactly what I would expect, and want, to see happen outside a bar, late at night with drunken people mulling around,.....swift and, if required, brutal.  The only thing I would have done *different [in 20/20 hind vision] is got his *** in the back of the car and away from the scene a lot of faster in order to keep things quiet.

Again, agreed (try not to be such a dick to me this time, when I agree with you). The police's job, late at night in the bar district, surrounded by hundreds or thousands of drunk idiots whose cap-hating side seems to come out is extremely hard. This guy was fighting back, causing a scene and people were gathering and getting aggressive. They took him down quickly and got him into a car. I'd say they handled it exactly how they should have. Quickly, professionally, and safely. 

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Actually Kat the "clown" was general and the "fool" had a smiley so...........

 

[Good2Golf]

The biggest problem with the video is that it starts AFTER the Officers' Decision Point to take the action they did. 

No matter people's inclination to side one way or another (prior to completion of an investigation), there is no way we know what actions the soldier took that resulted in the Officers' actions.  Based on that alone, I'm making no judgments one way or the other.  That said, I note Bruce's point about "treat as armed"...it is plausible that, soldier or not, the individual could have had a concealed weapon (remember those knife belt buckles anyone?) and until the subject was under full control (meaning hands secured, behind the back) he could have posed a threat.  Having had the opportunity to go on many ride-alongs with LE friends and seen some ass-hattery by people who normally would be considered upstanding citizens, while not judging, I am finding myself a bit more sympathetic to the LE in this situation, such as we can see.  If the videographer had earlier coverage, am sure we would all like to see it to have a better understanding of how the situation escalated as it did.

Mein zwei centen
G2G

 

[Occam]

The biggest problem with the video is that it starts AFTER the Officers' Decision Point to take the action they did. 

There's no issue with that.  I'll even play devil's advocate and say for argument's sake that the officers had reason to go physical with him.

No matter people's inclination to side one way or another (prior to completion of an investigation), there is no way we know what actions the soldier took that resulted in the Officers' actions.  Based on that alone, I'm making no judgments one way or the other.  That said, I note Bruce's point about "treat as armed"...it is plausible that, soldier or not, the individual could have had a concealed weapon (remember those knife belt buckles anyone?) and until the subject was under full control (meaning hands secured, behind the back) he could have posed a threat.  Having had the opportunity to go on many ride-alongs with LE friends and seen some ass-hattery by people who normally would be considered upstanding citizens, while not judging, I am finding myself a bit more sympathetic to the LE in this situation, such as we can see.  If the videographer had earlier coverage, am sure we would all like to see it to have a better understanding of how the situation escalated as it did.

Mein zwei centen
G2G

Earlier coverage would be irrelevant.  Even if there were reason to take him to the ground, there's enough on the video to make one question why knee shots were necessary.  Try putting the video into full screen mode.

For the first 10 seconds of the video, there are two officers on him.  One, in front of him (as he's laying on his left side), not being particularly helpful at all, and one behind him, restraining his right arm and trying to push him onto his stomach.  Another officer (bald) appears to be looking around nonchalantly before entering the fray and taking up position at his head.  At that point, the officer behind the victim starts delivering the knee shots.

The guy is on his side, being pushed by the cop behind him.  He can't roll forward onto his belly, because his left arm is in the way and there's a cop immediately in front of him.  So why the knee shots, when it's impossible for the guy to comply?

When he's finally cuffed, he's still on his left side, as you can see when the officer picks him up by his right arm before shoving him into the car.

The problem wasn't the fact that he was arrested.  The problem was the fact that it appears that the cops put him into a position where he couldn't comply, and he got a bunch of knee shots for nothing.

Sorry, the video is pretty compelling and if you look hard enough, you can see the position of everyone's hands, the orientation of the shoulders, head and arms of the Pte, and the direction the knee shots came from.  I'll wait for the investigation, but it sure looks like there was a lot left to be desired in the methods they used to bring him into custody.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Earlier coverage would be irrelevant.  Even if there were reason to take him to the ground, there's enough on the video to make one question why knee shots were necessary.  Try putting the video into full screen mode.

HolyBat ManF%$k....the knee shots have been explained over and friggin' over again.  Try reading.

Let me guess, you would rather have the next continuum and taken the chance of having either his arm or leg shattered by an ASP strike?

 

[mariomike]

I just know what I read in the papers ( in this case, The Daily Gleaner ).
This caught my attention: "When he awoke again, Begin said he was in the back of an ambulance where he had been intubated.
He said when the breathing tube was taken out, he asked the paramedic to help him because police had assaulted him.
"He just opened the door and called the cops on me that 'he was faking; take him back to jail,' " Begin said.

 

[Good2Golf]

Intubated?  ???  At what point did he get bagged...or loaded into a bus?

 

[chris_log]

Well, judging by what I see on the video, what this guy has said to the press and what I know about soldier's conduct in bars and police use of force....I suspect that this guy is trying to avoid something (perhaps some internal disciplinary action) by taking his story to the press (he wouldn't be the first person, or soldier, to do that).

Just my suspicion, and I doubt I'll get confirmation one way or the other.

It's funny, if one goes through threads in the 'Security and Emergency Services Forum' (or whatever its called) and read posts in other similar 'police beatdown' threads most of the posts are in favour of the police, including those made by people here who are crying foul at the police. And this case there's pretty clear cut evidence (video) as to why the police did what they did.

Being a soldier isn't carte blanch to do what you want or get off the hook for things civvy-side. There is no reason for us to consider the police's actions here any differently then we would if the 'suspect' was non-military. We in the CF should be the most sympathetic to police use of force incidents as we too find ourselves on the receiving end of armchair quarterbacking from our detractors. And the police have enough of those, as we can see by the posts by some people here we're all good and happy with the cops until they do something against 'us', and then the floodgates open.

 

[Roy Harding]

I agree with Piper here.

Well articulated, Piper - I take back what I was thinking about you in another thread. 


Roy

 

[mariomike]

Intubated?  ???  At what point did he get bagged...or loaded into a bus?

http://dailygleaner.canadaeast.com/front/article/739053
"bus"?  :rofl:

 

[Occam]

HolyBat ManF%$k....the knee shots have been explained over and friggin' over again.  Try reading.

Let me guess, you would rather have the next continuum and taken the chance of having either his arm or leg shattered by an ASP strike?

Yeah, I did read it.  WR said "It can be used as a distraction technique or as a form of pain compliance".

My question to you, or anyone else watching the video for that matter, is this:  Distract him to what end, or force him to comply with what, precisely?

Looking at the video and putting myself in the Pte's shoes, my first thoughts would be "I'm not resisting" and "If you're trying to roll me onto my stomach so you can cuff me, then tell your eggheaded partner who has his knees in my midsection and is doing absolutely nothing to get the hell out of the way so I can continue rolling".

I mean, really - one officer is pushing him one way, while the other is sitting around like a bump on a log preventing him from moving in the direction he's being pushed.  How in God's name is he supposed to comply??

 

[chris_log]

Yeah, I did read it.  WR said "It can be used as a distraction technique or as a form of pain compliance".

My question to you, or anyone else watching the video for that matter, is this:  Distract him to what end, or force him to comply with what, precisely?

Looking at the video and putting myself in the Pte's shoes, my first thoughts would be "I'm not resisting" and "If you're trying to roll me onto my stomach so you can cuff me, then tell your eggheaded partner who has his knees in my midsection and is doing absolutely nothing to get the hell out of the way so I can continue rolling".

I mean, really - one officer is pushing him one way, while the other is sitting around like a bump on a log preventing him from moving in the direction he's being pushed.  How in God's name is he supposed to comply??

Did I miss something? I thought he was an officer teaching at the infantry school.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Just to set the record straight a bit.  This soldier is a Van Doo Pte, not an officer, and is on incremental staff at the Infantry School.

      +
http://dailygleaner.canadaeast.com/front/article/739053

 

[Good2Golf]

http://dailygleaner.canadaeast.com/front/article/739053
"bus"?  :rofl:

Thanks Mario.  Yeah, I figured you'd get a laugh out of that.  ;D

Cheers
G2G

 

[mariomike]

Thanks for taking it in the spirit intended, G2G! :cheers:

 

[chris_log]

I know I'm going to catch flak for this, but regardless;

I watched the video again just now and am starting to draw some more conclusions (keep in mind, these are only my own). I first thought this guy was an instructor at the inf school (regardless of him being an officer or MCpl and up, although I could have sworn the article said he was a Captain) which said to me that he would have been older, much more eperienced and hopefully more mature. Now I find out he's incremental staff at the school as a Pte (I'm going to assume in a job like enemy force, driver etc) which means (to me) that he is younger, less experienced, less mature and right in that demographic of the army that likes to stir up shyte at bars.

I then noticed, after the 'incident' in the video the people that were gathered/gathering around to confront the police. Their style of dress and demeanor immediately raised red flags (to me). Are these his buddies (again, I would assume so, why else would they get so involved)? Notice the guy right from the beginning yelling at the cops (tall white dude), dressed in that pseudo-thug look (which happens to be quite popular in Quebec, which means to me he would be one of his buddies). The other people who gathered around also were dressed 'urban' (a demographic known for 'cop-hating'). Same goes for his girlfriend/fiance...she just has 'that look' about her which tells me she was NOT trying to diffuse to situation.

Am I jumping to some unfair conclusions? Maybe. But I have a funny feeling there is WAY more to this then our friend  is letting on and that this was probably his fault. Am I being unfair here, or is anyone else seeing what I'm seeing?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

For the first 10 seconds of the video, there are two officers on him.  One, in front of him (as he's laying on his left side), not being particularly helpful at all, and one behind him, restraining his right arm and trying to push him onto his stomach.  Another officer (bald) appears to be looking around nonchalantly before entering the fray and taking up position at his head.  At that point, the officer behind the victim starts delivering the knee shots.

The guy is on his side, being pushed by the cop behind him.  He can't roll forward onto his belly, because his left arm is in the way and there's a cop immediately in front of him.  So why the knee shots, when it's impossible for the guy to comply?

Are you sure you're watching the same video?

The "bald guy" left him as a greater threat appears to be coming from behind them........if you had any clue whatsoever you would know what a "rearguard" is.

The other Policeman is not "in the way", he is allowing the first Officer to assume control, again if you had a clue about restrainment you would know the fastest way to hurt someone bad is for too many hands to be pulling in too many directions. Once it became obvious one officer was not going to restrain this guy and the bouncers [if thats who they are] appear to have the Policemen's back then they returned to the task at hand,

The more I watch the more I think "textbook".

 

[Strike]

All blame aside (whether it belongs to the police or to the soldier), if the soldier does indeed have back injuries in the form of broken bones and/or soft tissue damage (but more wrt the fractures), it would probably be in the best interest of the Freddie Police to review the technique or knee strikes with their members.  The last thing they need is to have a bunch of their own people being charged with aggravated assault.

Knee strikes can be very useful but can be very dangerous when done improperly.  They have to be practiced (like every other self-defense/submission) endlessly in every position imaginable to ensure the best results with the least amount of damage.