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Alleged Institutional Racism/solutions in CAF (merged)

  • Thread starter Thread starter the patriot
  • Start date Start date
ArmyVern said:
A Comp posting also means that careers can send you to a location even IF all the jobs/positions there are filled because it will compassionately be in your best interest.

Not to detract from ArmyVern's otherwise excellent explanation, but I should point out that the above statement is incorrect.  DAOD 5003-6 (Contingency Cost Moves for Personal Reasons, Compassionate Status and Compassionate Posting) states:

DGMC, DSA and D Mil C shall be satisfied:

that an establishment vacancy exists, or is forecast to exist within a reasonable time, at the unit where a CF member is being considered for a contingency cost move for personal reasons or a compassionate posting;

So yes, there still has to be a vacancy to post the individual to.  Mind you, it could be an ATR billet.
 
Pusser said:
Not to detract from ArmyVern's otherwise excellent explanation, but I should point out that the above statement is incorrect.  DAOD 5003-6 (Contingency Cost Moves for Personal Reasons, Compassionate Status and Compassionate Posting) states:

DGMC, DSA and D Mil C shall be satisfied:

that an establishment vacancy exists, or is forecast to exist within a reasonable time, at the unit where a CF member is being considered for a contingency cost move for personal reasons or a compassionate posting;

So yes, there still has to be a vacancy to post the individual to.  Mind you, it could be an ATR billet.

True that; career managers overwhelmingly supportive of such requests as "next APS" is usually considered to be "reasonable" time even at same trade vice ATR.
 
recceguy said:
I'm pretty sure the Staff said to drop the tangent and stay on track.

Milnet.ca Staff

Oh yes, I see that they did; my apologies to the mods. Tangent complete.
 
For anyone wondering here is more info for you to read up on that was left out...Then before you start reply maybe you should realize there are two sides of the story and for some reason they wont comment. I have everything proving what is right and can back all of it up. So before you start playing this race card LOOK AT THE FACTS...

The Case of Wally Fowler - Possible Cover up!!!

Dear Tim McSorley,

Let me indicate that this was and still is a "cover up" now been perpetrated by Dominion Paper and it's members.

It has been duly noted that your "follow up" with Miles has gone south perhaps.  Notwithstanding I shall take every measure possible to ensure others don't fall prey to this type of incompetent "hack" reporting.  Let me be very specific, while Miles was in receipt of at least seven (7) letters of support for Wally from both officers in the CF and Dr. Keith Martin, MP Juan de fuca, Esquimalt - we remain bemused as to why Dr. Martin wasn't mentioned?  For without his assistance in a letter to the Minister of National Defense Wally and copied to the Ombudsman, Wally would not have gotten out of that poisoned environment. 

More disturbingly, however, it would appear that the only person that Miles interviewed was retired Captain Dave Wong - Miles placed the call with the phone number that I provided him.  Where is the professionalism in interviewing "one" person when several more are available?  Is this responsible investigating and reporting of the "facts"?  I will submit, it is not.  Where are the interviews from Commander Taylor, Capt Penley, Colonel Boddam, and among others -

Marianne Ostopovich, BSW Counselling Services Coordinator dated 24 May, 2002 - from CFB Esquimalt Military Family Resource Centre - which states in part:

"...Pte. Fowler reports that he has never lived in a community where people are openly this racist and degrading as they have been here in Victoria... Pte. Fowler has suggested some desired posting locations: They are: one, Greenwood, Nova Scotia or two, Halifax, Nova Scotia..."  He is very concerned for his family"...

Where are the very interesting comments and concerns of Lieutenant-Commander D.F. Ohs Base Chaplain, CFB Esquimalt that are contained in the letter dated 3 July, 2002 that we furnished Miles with that states in part:

..."I am concerned with the well being of this family.  They are not coping well with their present reality.  Their trust level with the local community is non-existent and they are truly miserable. Although Pte. Fowler feels personally happy and fulfilled as a member of the Canadian Forces, he has to go home at night, where he hears the daily plight of his family.  This has an overwhelming affect on him and he feels helpless .  My second concern is for the Canadian Forces itself. 

In the CF, we pride ourselves on fairness, duty, loyalty and honour, to name a few.  We stand between warring factions, seeking peace and demand justice for people we don't even know.  All we know is that they are people in need; even visible minorities and we will go to extraordinary lengths to assist them, regardless of cost.  This is what makes Canada a great and respected nation.  Yet, for all of our good intentions, our national and world image could be deeply stained on just one accusation of failing to take care of one of our own families, facing severe discrimination (to them) because they are from a visible minority, and because " no one would listen to them".  If the member were to seek the assistance of his racial community, I believe that this could be perceived a national scandal."

And where are the emails that we provided to Miles between the Ombudsman's office and the Military that clearly demonstrated a "cover up".  A cover up of epic proportions. Perhaps Miles simply forgot to mention these crucial documents eh???  Then shall attempt to refresh both of your memories then:

In an email from XXX dated Monday, 19 April, 2004 To XXX
CC: XXX; XXX

Subject:  Question in the House this Afternoon

We were advised by someone at NDHQ that a question may be raised in the house with respect to a complaint that has been referred to our office.  The complainant's name is Fowler and the case had to do with racial discrimination, as well as PSTD.

Could either yourself, Dawn or Althea check the transcripts of today's proceedings when they come out to see if anything was raised.  Let me know if you need more information.

Thanks
Barb F.

The next email establishes the cover up conspiracy between the Ombudsman and the Military.

From XXX dated Monday, 19 April, 2004
To: XXX

Subject:  RE:  Question in the House this afternoon

Importance:  High

Sensitivity:  Confidential

Here it is Garth.

Let me know if you're missing anything.

<<File: ROC #3 April 7.doc>>

A letter is also being sent this afternoon by Fedex confirming our conversation and that the "only issue you wished us to investigate were concerns with respect to a medical pension"  I am still awaiting a call from him this afternoon.  I'll keep you posted.

Brigitte.

Mr. McSorley, would you have Canadians believe that the above information is not essential and fundamentally germane to the "truth" about what really happened to Wally Fowler and his family?  Miles "hacked" the story and fabricated information to make both Wally and I look bad.  This is not the way to write a story - especially when someone else may hold the "Truth".  And yes, we have much more than this to share with fair-minded Canadians who are interested in learning the whole truth.

Sincerely,

Rubin Rocky A. Coward, CD

Note:  Edited to remove email addresses.  Harris - Milnet Staff
 
Everything is hearsay. News articles, press releases, undergound sources aren't included or allowed.

We deal here in verifiable facts.

If you  have some, please post them.

NOTE: I said verifiable facts.

If you want to post rumour, innuendo, etc,  you can go to Radio Chatter.

There is tons of bullshit there to add to ::)
 
Mr. Fowler: please don't spam me with PMs that repeat everything you post to the board. I am not amused!
 
Members are being spammed with excess messages and useless junk mail.
We don't tolerate Spam.

Thread locked :salute:
 
Military missing employment equity recruiting targets
Canadian Forces still dominated by white men
CBC news today.

 
If you are going to post news items,  posting the article or at least a link is the norm, not just a paraphrase of something you read/saw on the news.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/08/02/pol-military-recruiting-targets.html

Recruiting targets
                              Target (2010)         Current (2012)
Women                     25.1 %           14.73 %
Visible Minorities     11.8%                  4.93 %
Aboriginals             3.4 %                   2.12 %

Military missing employment equity recruiting targets
Canadian Forces still dominated by white men
By Kathleen Harris, CBC News Posted: Aug 2, 2012 7:28 PM ET Last Updated: Aug 2, 2012 7:43 PM ET Read 2 comments2

Two years after upping its targets for recruiting women, aboriginals and visible minorities, the Canadian Forces is falling far short of meeting its goals.

According to statistics provided to CBC News Network's Power & Politics by the Department of National Defence, women now make up less than 15 per cent of the military – well below the 25 per cent target and even behind its previous target that was based on 2001 census data.

Visible minorities account for less than 5 per cent of the Canadian Forces – that's less than half the goal of nearly 12 per cent, and aboriginals make up just over two per cent of the military, compared to the 3.4 per cent target.

The employment equity recruiting goals aim to meet the targets by 2013.

DND says it's committed to better reflecting Canadian society and has community outreach, advertising and other initiatives to increase diversity.

So why is the military still primarily made up of white men? Does it matter? And is the military doing enough to meet its own targets?

Speaking to CBC News Network's Power & Politics Chris Alexander, parliamentary secretary to the defence minister, said it's critical for the Canadian Forces to better reflect Canada's demography reality in order to project our values around the world. The department has set "ambitious targets" and is working hard to make better progress.

He pointed out that Canada is ahead of the curve on many fronts compared even to like-minded democracies – including the role of women in every capacity.

Alexander told guest host Hannah Thibedeau: "I think we can do more, but I think we need, as Canadians, to understand we have done well," he said. "They are submariners, they are fighter pilots."

The Conservative MP said today's dynamics are shaped by decades of past policy decisions, and blamed the Liberals for contributing to the problem by closing down reserve units when they were in power. Those units were helpful in recruiting target groups, he said.

But NDP MP and military procurement critic Matthew Kellway said the data masks an even more troubling trend. Women mostly serve in traditional roles in the military, and constant conflict between aboriginal groups and the federal government has thwarted efforts to attract more aboriginals to serve.

He said the Canadian Forces must do better in order to win support from the public.

"If the Canadian Forces wants the support of the Canadian population, it's imperative that they reflect the diversity of the population," said Kellway.

Liberal defence critic John McKay said the military isn't in tune as it should be with successful recruiting techniques. He said the Canadian Forces must do a better job of aggressively targeting groups in urban cores.

Walter Dorn, a professor of defence studies at the Royal Military College of Canada, said the military is doing much work to improve the numbers – but still needs to do more to change the "culture."

"Despite the best efforts, there's still a tendency for the white males to dominate in the Canadian Forces, and that's only natural. By being themselves they're going to have tendencies and biases that aren't shared by other communities," he said. "A lot of that is nuanced and subtle, but it's definitely there."

Dorn said the linguistic and cultural skills of minority groups not only better reflect Canada on the world stage, but are also an operational asset in deployments abroad.
 
As a serving member, I am more concerned we recruit the right people, regardless of their "insert diversity driven adjective".

Seriously, is there anything more racist than a "quota"?  ::)
 
Seems like a fine line "target" and "quota" to me.

Why not aim for recruiting 100% of "the best possible candidate, regardless of their sex/age/color/religion/etc.

There is a good target, IMO.
 
Walter Dorn, a professor of defence studies at the Royal Military College of Canada, said the military is doing much work to improve the numbers – but still needs to do more to change the "culture."

"Despite the best efforts, there's still a tendency for the white males to dominate in the Canadian Forces, and that's only natural. By being themselves they're going to have tendencies and biases that aren't shared by other communities," he said. "A lot of that is nuanced and subtle, but it's definitely there."

What tendencies and biases? All white guys have nuanced and subtle differences? Hmm.......If that's not stereotyping I don't know what is.
And how on earth would he know? How much time has he spent in the back of a LAV with a section of soldiers?

Like EITS said, our, CORRECTION, target quota should be the best person for the job, period.
 
Eye In The Sky said:
Seems like a fine line "target" and "quota" to me.

It may be fine, to you, but it exists and it is an important difference. If we had quotas, we would be turning away some people in order to keep spots open for others. The CF is not doing that.

Eye In The Sky said:
Why not aim for recruiting 100% of "the best possible candidate, regardless of their sex/age/color/religion/etc.

We are doing exactly that (although the recruiting forum here eposes some of our deficiencies on a daily basis). However, if you have not noticed, "white guys" is not the most growing demographic in Canada. It doesn't hurt recruiting to have people of various backgrounds in the CF, since if we keep counting on "white guys", there wont be anyone in the CF in a generation or 2.

 
Sorry , haven't. Mastered the cut and paste or copyright intro. From an ipad.  I need more practice. I really believe in first come first serve.  Back in the 60s 70s  they recruited plenty from high unemployment area and education may have been lacking but that was a different time.  Lots of Cape Breton, Northern New Brunswick and Newfoundland.  All Canadians. 
Maybe time for  a giant YTEP intake to address the high youth unemployment diversity be damned.  It is time for jobs and training not infrastructure.
Racism is wrong and so is bigotry. But does diversity provide any positive points or is it still viewed as a form of reverse discrimination. 

Just pick the most promising.  Always Canadian 100%, no matter the race creed colour or religion.
I taught YTEP infantry and watched the buses arrive in Wainwright and we had kids from coast to coast. And they melded.
 
+1 CND AVIATOR.

When I was recruiting, diversity was a big part of what the attraction team did.  But it was never quotas only targetting.  Very different.  We would have a presence at various events and shows like women's shows, cultural festivals etc etc getting the message out to attract more people from those target groups.  But every file was the same colour in the end and the best candidates is what we aimed for.

Look at it like this.  We want more women, aboriginals, visible minorities, whatever.  But we want the best ones.  To that you need to get them through the door and processed in sufficient quantities to get the best ones.  If 1 woman comes through the door and 100 men come through your odds that she is the best aren't that good.  She could be.  But unlikely. 

When we talk about trends and tendancies it means that certain demographics are not drawn to certain occupations.  This may change with time but its a fact that we have to work with.  Women generally are not attracted to the combat arms in great numbers.  Some visible minorities come from countries where military service is either forced, or the military is seen as something oppressive and poorly respected and that predjudice is brought here.  For some aboriginal communities, leaving is just not something you do.  Like it or not there are some trades and professions that attract certain segments of society.

The key is getting information out so that we can attract the best and the brightest into ALL trades and professions.  That's what targetted recruiting is.  It isn't quotas, it is agressively selling ourselves to those groups that the CF is a place for them and that we do want their best and brightest.
 
What Crantor and CDN Aviator said.

We are perhaps the only federal government department that does not use "equity hiring" in our recruiting.  We may have "targeted attractions" to encourage more groups other than white male to apply, but they aren't given any priority in the process to get through  (there are seperate Aboriginal entry programs, but they are their own distinct programs that have no bearings on spots at St-Jean, and even still it is hard to fill all the seats).  And the majority of our selections are down via top down merit listing  (if there are 10 spots available for a given MOSID, then basically the 10 highest ranked people get selected, period.)

Unless these NDP/Liberals want to change the CF from a volunteer force to a conscript one, we can't force people to join if they don't want to.
 
A few more Employment Equity / Diversity / Target topics, if interested.

Topic: "Canadian Forces failing in gender integration and employment equity: report":
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/2262.0

Topic: "Haven't We Done The "Target" Recruiting Before?":
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/73674.0.html

Topic: "ROTP Questionare- Employment Equity Act":
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/90556.0

Topic: "Employment equity is only for those who qualify":
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/37277.0/nowap.html

 
I would hate to see the race and gender-based paranoia that is being peddled in the US making its way here.

I hope the CF continues to select based on merit and not some arbitrary categories like pigmentation levels.
 
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