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All Things Negligent Discharge (merged)

48Highlander said:
    This is why the pam says "a round may be fired".   It's possible that a round may have failed to extract and is still in the barrel.   If it's just a csing it won't fire, however, your next action is to reload, ****, and fire.   When you **** the weapon, that casing should be extracted.   Otherwise as you pointed out there's a problem with the extractor, and an extra step in the drill is not going to fix it.

I might be missing your point here, correct me if im wrong but, your saying: After you carry out paras a,b,c, and d, carry on with the rest of the drill because the next part of the IA is to reload, ****, and fire.  When you **** the weapon, that casing should be extracted.

I think I understand but, what I think you fail to understand is that when you carry out the last part of the IA is that you are indeed trying to load another another round into the breach with an excisting one still jammed in there.

I dunno, does it make sense?
 
KevinB said:
I know many MG'ers that use an abreviate IA drill - **** and look - if a casing comes out keep rocking and rolling...

And if a round is not ejected the normal IA is carried out?
 
You guys have to amend your profiles so that cock doesn't get sensored in your posts.   I am beginning to think that you are cursing when you aren't.

In my case the IA was carried out and now we were into Secondary Actions.   The working parts were partially to the rear, with two rounds jammed and the face of the bolt had to be cleared.

GW
 
George Wallace said:
You guys have to amend your profiles so that **** doesn't get sensored in your posts.   I am beginning to think that you are cursing when you aren't.

In my case the IA was carried out and now we were into Secondary Actions.   The working parts were jammed and the face of the bolt had to be cleared.

GW

Sorry ill get on it,
I understand your stoppage George, the extrctor held onto the round but their was a problem with the ejector and it did not eject the round, thus loading another. Correct?
 
Right......causing a "Double Feed".   This is an occurance that can happen on any MG and I'll include Chain Guns and cannons.   If the barrel (and therefore the breach) is hot from prolonged firing and a round remains up the spout for too long there is the possibility of a 'cook off'.  

In the case of the 25 mm, a "Hot Cannon" will call for a 30 min wait for it to cool down and safely continue on with Secondary Actions.

GW
 
Yes.  Worse case the bolt is already back.

George - ah seen - I did not gather that as I had not seen " and we held the bolt to the rear while we opened the cover"  ;)


I cant read c0ck when you type it either...




 
KevinB said:
I cant read c0ck when you type it either...

Interesting.....it is good on my end.  Couldn't read Blakey's, but read your misspelling of c0ck.  Interesting....guess the checking or unchecking of the censor box has unusual effects on things.

GW
 
Kev, So then when they cock the wpn and no casing is ejected they would lower the weapon open the feed tray cover and feed tray and examine the breach? or just carry out the IA? as in cocking the weapon (already done) carrying out a complete unload followed by a load, the reaming and firing?

Sorry if it seems like I'm beating a dead horse here but i think my point is being missed.
 
George - I never knew there was a censor box - live and learn.

Blakey - do the Abreviate IA - round ejected - keep firing
                                      - round not ejected - open cover, sweep, close fire etc. (continue the book IA)
 
KevinB said:
Blakey - do the Abreviate IA - round ejected - keep firing
                                      - round not ejected - open cover, sweep, close fire etc. (continue the book IA)

Seen, ok ill try to explain this with your example, damn i wish i could just speak without typing this all out but here goes.

Ill explain this as if you were the firer, if i may.

1)You are firing away, the weapon fails to fire, at this time the position of the bolt and carrier are fully forward, you cock the weapon and at the same time look to see if a round is ejected; no round was ejected.

2)Since the weapons action is to the rear you carry out the IA from that point- lower the wpn, open the feed tray cover sweep, close the feed tray cover, wpn to shoulder fire action, wpn lowered, reload aim cont firing.

All I am saying is that no time in that drill did you look into the breach and observe the breach, or maybe im not clear in what your saying.
Because that drill would not clear a live round fully home in the breach, albeit with a dirty or broken extractor.
 
Ill explain this as if you were the firer, if i may.

1)You are firing away, the weapon fails to fire, at this time the position of the bolt and carrier are fully forward, you cock the weapon and at the same time look to see if a round is ejected; no round was ejected.

2)Since the weapons action is to the rear you carry out the IA from that point- lower the wpn, open the feed tray cover sweep, close the feed tray cover, wpn to shoulder fire action, wpn lowered, reload aim cont firing.  

At this time you are checking for feed.   Did the belt move?   If yes, then you continue to fire.   If it didn't move, you now have a "Prolonged Stoppage" as the Wpn failed to fire when you pulled the trigger.   You have a problem with your feed mech.   Now you are no longer in an IMMEDIATE ACTION, but into "SECONDARY ACTIONS'

All I am saying is that no time in that drill did you look into the breach and observe the breach, or maybe im not clear in what your saying.
Because that drill would not clear a live round fully home in the breach, albeit with a dirty or broken extractor.

This is a Secondary Action.  

GW
 
George, lil confused here sorry, where in the drill are you looking for the belt to move?
 
Every time you cock the wpn, you watch for the belt to move.  (It is the first indicator that you may have a problem.)  Attempt to fire.  If it doesn't fire, and the belt didn't move when you had cocked, then you know that the first round was not picked up and you have a feed problem.

GW
 
Those silly Armoured guys  ;D

Blakey - he is doing it from the Armoured side of the house... 
  You are correct however - there is no requirement to look the first time round - which is why a round may or may not be fired.  If the weapon is not rectified by the IA - you have to go into secondary actions - Pull your pistol and kiss your ass goodbye...


 
Gunner said:
As a point of note, the CO of the RCD who was in Kosovo and banged his helmet off of a C6 trigger sending 3 or so rounds off was charged and was given a $5000 fine (everyone is charged now - includign padres).

Padres aren't suppose to carry wpns or fire them!!!!  I hope they aren't having NDs unless it is with their crosses, lol.
 
Radop said:
Padres aren't suppose to carry wpns or fire them!!!!  I hope they aren't having NDs unless it is with their crosses, lol.

Chaplains are permitted to carry weapons for self defence in a war zone, are they not? 

Perhaps I'm confusing things with the Germans in Russia - I've seen photos of their chaplains very definitely armed, however, the Soviet Union was not a signatory to the Geneva Convention so perhaps that situation was different.

The Convention does allow medical troops to carry firearms for personal protection as well as the security of patients in their care.  Wouldn't be surprised to hear the same applied to chaplains.
 
Michael,

You're right as far as the medics, but to my knowledge Padres are not allowed to carry weapons.
 
recceguy said:
Michael,

You're right as far as the medics, but to my knowledge Padres are not allowed to carry weapons.

I have taught wpns classes to padres and the only thing they could do was learn how to make them safe ie/ a bunch of billigerants surrender to a padre, he must be able to disable the wpns by taking out the bolts.  Other than that, they are not to even conduct range practice as far as I know.
 
Can't remember his name, but there was a padre in WWII who, along with a solitary Cpl, accepted the surrender of a large number of Germans ... while holding an unloaded wpn (he turned up the collar of his battledress in order to hide his crosses ... and when a German officer spied them and started to protest ... the Cpl butt-stroked him ...) - not sure what medal he received ...

And ... there's no rule against a padre using a noisemaker ... (as long as he doesn't hurt anybody ...)

"Praise The Lord and pass the ammunition."
 
Army reports more weapons fired by accident
http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/609527
Stephen Thorne
THE CANADIAN PRESS

OTTAWA – Cases involving the accidental firing of weapons have risen up to 40 per cent in two years and now comprise a quarter of all military trials in Canada, says the Canadian Forces' top judge.

In the judge advocate general's annual report to Parliament, Brig.-Gen. Kenneth Watkin says the total number of courts martial rose 16 per cent to 78 in 2007-08, while summary trials were up 17.6 per cent to 2,035.
Watkin reports that 510 summary trials – proceedings held before a senior officer as opposed to courts martial before a JAG – were held for negligent discharge of weapons offences in 2007-08. That's an increase of 115, or 29 per cent, over the previous year.

He notes the increases accompany a shift in training emphasis and a broader focus on weapons handling in the Canadian Forces – as well as expanded recruiting. Just 69 cases were heard in theatres of operation, most commonly Afghanistan.
"Negligent discharge offences occurred in greatest numbers at training units or in training circumstances," Watkin reports, adding that 96 per cent of offences occurred at five training facilities and 64 per cent of defendants were entry-level privates or officer cadets.
"The majority of negligent discharge offences are committed by CF members who are at early stages in their careers," the report says.

The rising number of young recruits is not the only reason behind the increase. After consulting with the chain of command, Watkin notes that military training has changed markedly in concert with Canada's fighting role in southern Afghanistan.
"Training in support of current operations is robust and increasingly tailored to the nature of the missions," he reported.

"Pre-deployment training for CF members being sent abroad may last the better part of a year and it is designed to emulate conditions and circumstances in Afghanistan.
"CF members undergo weapons training more frequently and have more ammunition available for training purposes than in the past."

The vast majority of summary trials – 53 per cent – were for ``conduct to the prejudice of good order and discipline," a broad range of charges that includes some weapons-related offences and those related to drugs, drunkenness and sex offences.
Another 30 per cent of summary trials were for absence without leave.

In the most high-profile case involving an accidental discharge, Cpl. Matthew Wilcox of Glace Bay, N.S., faces court martial for manslaughter, criminal negligence causing death and negligent performance of duty. The charges were laid last fall after Cpl. Ronald Kevin Megeney was shot in his tent at Kandahar on March 6, 2007. Both soldiers were reservists.

Senior military commanders expressed confidence in their troops' weapons handling abilities, despite the rising number of misfires, Watkin said.
"It is suggested that one interpretation of the statistics may be that the opportunity for the negligent discharge of a weapon is significantly higher when a member spends more time training with weapons."

While the military justice system provides "an important means by which to address the serious matter of the inappropriate handling of weapons," the JAG maintains the key to reversing the tide lies in leadership and training.
 
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