All Things Negligent Discharge (merged)

[Spr.Earl]

I know the R.O.E.‘s cant be made public but by the sound‘s of it they are along the same lines as in Bosnia today but Afghanistan is not Bosnia.
It‘s still the wild west and Kabul is Dodge.

To a point I don‘t blame the guy‘s for locking and loading,but one must be aware at all time‘s when patrolling with a loaded weapon and if he/she does have a A.D. then they pay the piper.

There again what was the young rifleman doing in a vehicle with a cocked rifle?

Yes there is quite an argument with this one for pro and con.

 

[Armymedic]

As per ROE‘s (Afghan or Bosnia, not much different, NATO all the same after all)cocking your weapon is done on order of on scene commander or when immenent threat is percieved. Cocking of your weapon the first step of the escalation of DEADLY force and in itself can be a deterrent to the use of force by your threat.

In the real world, gungho-ness may just get you killed.

 

[Jarnhamar]

``the cocking of weapons is in itself one of the steps that can be taken to warn off potential aggressors.``

I`m all for having a round in the chamber. I understand what they said in the article about cocking your weapon being part of the escalation of force but the time needed to cock your weapon and bring it up to a shooting position could not only cost a soldier his life but other soldiers as well. People argue that cocking your weapon takes hardly any time at all, when your counting seconds it`s a very long time in my opinion. I`ve `heard`of patrols cocking their weapons soon as they leave the gates, if $hit is going to hit the fan then theres a good chance the soldier will be skipping the whole cock your weapon as a show of force step in the first place. If someone has an AK47 with a round in the chamber and points it at a soldier who has to cock his weapon before shooting to defend himself who do you think will likely win'. I know the argument can go both ways but in the end i`d rather be the one alive. I`m confident that i won`t shoot my weapon by accident and if i do, **** fine me and give my money to the queen.

 

[combat_medic]

Does anyone here remember "ground dictates?"

Yes, if you‘re in the middle of a war zone during a time of war, it makes a lot of sense to have a round up the spout.

However, if you‘re in an extremely low-risk peacekeeping operation, having the chamber empty makes a lot of sense too.

Shouldn‘t the type of operation and perceived threat influence the ROEs and the way weapons are carried and loaded?

 

[DJD556]

It seems to me to be that this is more buracracy leading the way. Toronto isn‘t a really bad place to be and yet the police have their weapons ready to go. I understand the argument of cocking a rifle as an act of intimidation, but I also could see it escalating a situation and that could get people killed or worse Canadians!

 

[Infanteer]

However, if you‘re in an extremely low-risk peacekeeping operation, having the chamber empty makes a lot of sense too.

And are you considering Afghanistan one of these.

 

[Marauder]

"Every time we walk out that gate, all of Canada walks with us. And I don‘t think Canadians would be particularly impressed if we were going out in any other way than we are right now."

That‘s a real easy rationale for Joe Liberal Canadian to make when his *** is sitting in a climate controlled Timmy Ho‘s in Mississauga reading the Toronto Star (commie ****ing ****rag that it is), but that ignores the realities and dangers of the situation. What Jill ****head here at home doesn‘t know CAN mess up Bloggins over in Indian Country.

Sounds to me like some officers are feeling pretty comfy and secure locked in thier CP in the middle of camp. But that‘s just my interpretation.

 

[combat_medic]

Infanteer: No, certainly not. I would consider Afghanistan high-risk peacekeeping and therefore more in a grey area. The people actually deployed there would be in the best position to make a determination as to whether or not weapons should readied; a far better position than the politicians making such decisions.

I believe in an either/or; neither answer is right all the time, but the situation should dictate the decision.

 

[Armymedic]

Exactly as the other medic says..
ground and situation dictate,

Thats why the descision to put a round in the chamber of small arms is left to the patrol commander, or on scene commander.

As a leader, it leaves me ALOT of independance to assess the situation, and deal with it with all the tools the ROEs give me.

 

[Jungle]

Thats why the descision to put a round in the chamber of small arms is left to the patrol commander, or on scene commander.

As a leader, it leaves me ALOT of independance to assess the situation, and deal with it with all the tools the ROEs give me.

The important question is: is the patrol/ on-scene commander ready to accept the consequences if something goes wrong ? Not only in the case of a ND, but what about having one of ours killed because we took too long to respond ?
Personally, as I have written before, "I‘d rather be judged by twelve than carried by six".

 

[logistik]

Besides, said Denne, the first thing a soldier does when he comes under direct fire is to take cover.

What about the double tap in double tap dash down crawl observe fire?

 

[Doug VT]

The first thing that you always do when coming under fire is take cover. That other stuff‘s a load of crap! You‘re going to do what you can do, depending on the situation, not necessarily in that order.
No matter what tour you‘re on, no matter what country you‘re in, no matter what type of ROE that is in effect, some idiot will have an ND. It‘s a simple fact. It‘s like a law of nature, someone will always get caught fraternizing. Yeah, it‘s not good, but unfortunately it‘s bound to happen. Hopefully no-one get‘s hurt or killed in the process, soldier or civilian, it makes no difference, sucks either way.
A good commander should have a grip on the actions of his/her subordinates, enough so that he/she will know what they‘re specific reactions to certain situations will be. Knowing this, control should be absolute, always assuming responsibility for all the group‘s actions.

 

[Jungle]

The double tap is used when coming under fire during advance to contact, meaning you are in a war. Peace support ops are different, ROEs do not allow firing blindly in a general direction. You have to ID the target before engaging.

 

[Infanteer]

Personally, as I have written before, "I‘d rather be judged by twelve than carried by six".

That, my good Warrant, is what seperates the men on the ground and the pencil pushers in Ottawa.

 

[justa guy]

This is a very interesting discussion and one that has been going on for years. I just wanted to add a pet peeve of my own.

Long ago when we carried the FN C1A1 rifle we didn‘t seem to have as many negligent discharges. I know they did occur but they were much rarer than they are today. I believe that an important contributing factor was that the C1 rifle could be put on safe at any time. It may seem a small thing but we developed the habit of always putting the rifle on safe wether it was loaded or not. For a soldier the natural state of his rifle was "on safe".

The C7 rifle will not go on safe unless it has been cocked. So for much of the time the rifle is left on repetition. Soldiers today are not in the habit of checking their safety lever because most of the time you can‘t move it. When ordered to load the C7 you have to remember to change the lever. For most of our soldiers this is not a problem. But for a very few it can be forgotten and contribute to an ND.

I think this technological change has increased the number of NDs and resulted in a more dangerous work environment for our soldiers.

I am not a wpns tech so I don‘t know if it is even possible but if the C7 could be modified to go on safe when the hammer is not cocked I think it would help to cut down on the number of NDs we are experiencing. It would make things safer for our soldiers and also for the precious Afgan civilians.

 

[Armymedic]

I really don‘t think the type of weapon matters if peopls can not keep thier fingers away from the trigger.......

:mg:

 

[towhey]

True, Canadian police officers do carry their weapons with a round in the chamber. However, their "rules of engagement" require sidearms to remain in the holster until there is a clear and present danger.

Carrying a rifle with a loaded magazine on it, then charging it when a clear and present danger exists is, in essence the same thing.

Police issue sidearms also have positive safety mechanisms that permit safe carry with a round chambered. Standard issue Canadian service weapons do not (Non standard issue weapons such as Sig-Sauer Pistols do, as may special ops weapons, etc.)

If there was a credible risk of an aggressor popping up with an AK-47 and effectively engaging Canadian troops, I suspect that may be grounds for charging weapons on entering the situation.

Having served on numerous "peacekeeping" tours, including one in southern Africa -- I can personally attest to the value of effectively escalating one‘s response to a threat. Something as simple as an obvious change in posture or behaviour can have an incredibly sobering effect on a hostile crowd. Charging weapons, like fixing bayonets, is an immensely powerful form of communication.

Personally, I believe Canadian soldiers are highly-trained professionals -- some of the best soldiers in the world -- and I trust them to make appropriate judgement calls on the ground.

 

[GrahamD]

I really don‘t think the type of weapon matters if peopls can not keep thier fingers away from the trigger.......

Fingers are only one of many mechanisms that can depress a trigger.

For example I would never sling a loaded and cocked hunting rifle over my sholder while using a range finder, binoculars, GPS, taking a piss, or whatever. Its unlikely, but still a remote possibility that as you are doing whatever you are doing your prey springs into view, you hastily snatch at your rifle from your shoulder, a branch you hadn‘t noticed sticks in your trigger guard creating leverage, depresses the trigger and you shoot your buddy in the face. It seems unlikely that it would ever happen to anyone with experience, yet there are multiple hunting accidents in North America every year resulting in fatalities. Many from accidental discharge. (Like the guy who dressed his dog up as a hunter, rifle and all, and somehow the rifle fired and killed him. I‘m pretty sure I saw that clip in Bowling for Columbine). Considering all that, imagine how many near misses go unreported.

"He‘s lucky,‘‘ said Denne. "He‘s extraordinarily lucky. Exceedingly lucky. He could have hurt or killed one of our soldiers but, worse, he could have hurt or killed an innocent civilian.‘‘

This is just my personal viewpoint, but I would rather take a round from a buddy than see him be responsible for the potentialy devastating repercussions of killing a civilian in a foreign conflict zone. Such an incident can (and has) cause intense scrutiny on the entire Canadian Forces, damage our positive reputation globaly, and wound national pride based upon that reputation.
In the worst case scenario, such an incident could bring the wrath of the locals upon the rest of the peacekeepers in the region, and cause a significant loss of life on both sides.

 

[Sig]

Every member of the CF is soldier first. That means you have to be able to competently handle your personal weapon. Any ND is just that. AD was a very poor term, that is why it no longer exists. Besides, yes, bringing the weapon up is an excellent deterrent, not to mention cocking it. If you feel the time spent cocking the weapon might mean the difference between being "judged by twelve or carried by six" perhaps you were not sufficiently aware of the situation. One final point. Anyone who has ever had a weapon in a SMP veh knows how many things it can get tangled in. Having one in the spout is foolishness.

 

[Gunner]

A friend of mine was injured by a Signaller‘s ND in Africa. I don‘t think you can have too cavalier an attitude when dealing with NDs. It can take a life. In my buddies case, he will have the scar for the remainder of his life. What is the price on that?