All Things Combat Diver (merged)

[kj_gully]

Hey to any who know who this is. How fun reading this thread, I have spent way too much time and energy debating every topic raised in here over too many beers; by the looks of it, with many of the hard chargers who have posted the more ..."informative" posts. I feel I have a well rounded understanding of Army Diving, and will pontificate for a moment on the subject for my amusement, and I am sure for the amusement of some others. I feel there will always be a place in the Army for highly motivated, fit, well trained sub specialists who exhibit a high degree of morale and esprit de corps. Combat Divers do that in spades. Selection is designed to create an elite force, due to the rigourous( torturous?) preselection ran by divers who have an interest in maintaining a standard worthy of a hazardous duty badge. I agree that there have been few opportunities to utilize the "combat" side of combat divers in recent times, but only because the world is falling apart in the desert. Having said all this, to be effective and relevant, the use of combat divers needs sharp focus. SEAL style ops? No. JTF will and probably does do that.Ranger recon style tactical recce tasks, you bet. If we ever get serious about amphibious warfare, then Marine recon.Here's a newsflash.Our Navy is not tactical. So if we want to put boots on the beach, all the real estate between low tide and good cover inland (if you want to write a staff paper on this its called the littoral zone)will have to be cleared and secured by soldiers. That's probably already way too much. Oh yeah, rebreathers? with the same logic that sapper 6 ( I'm pretty sure we must have been on the same dive course, but I can't guess who he is yet) uses to dissuade infanteers from scuba ops, I use on youall for rebreather ops. Just because you went to fort bragg and dove a rebreather that somebody strapped to you on a sunny day at the beach while everybody stood around hung over with their hands in their pockets swapping war stories, don't think its an easy or simple process to dive and maintain those things. As long as there are still guys in your dive section who put there regulator on a set of jugs backwards and go into the drink without their air turned on, you probably should stick to CABA.

Take care warriors
Gully

 

[043]

Kent,

You mean the Navy isn¦#039;t tactical???????????? Crap!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Say hi to Ratzo for me would ya?

 

[kj_gully]

ha ha, I got you, I no longer swim with the fish, but now soar with the eagles, I am on TV in about 5 minutes on truth duty valour, check it out

Take care warriors
Gully

 

[Sea-dog]

  I agree that there have been few opportunities to utilize the "combat" side of combat divers in recent times, but only because the world is falling apart in the desert.

It is my understanding that during the initial attack in Iraq, the Port of Basra,was mined and booby-trapped and this posed a significant problem to the Allied Forces trying to safely land forces and equipment.As we all know any force without logistic back-up will during any significant battle very quickly run into serious trouble,effecting the end result dramatically.

However it was due to the excellent work of combat divers,clearance divers and sappers of the British forces that this port became available and could safely be used by the Allied Forces not only for the supply of combat forces in the south of Iraq,but also allowed for the quick return of oil exports thus having a significant effect on the economy of Iraq.

The most important reason for having such forces available is not only to support the US in their over seas military ventures, BUT more important to be available to prevent any form of economic warfare against Canada by ensuring and safeguarding free and safe waterways and open accessable sea ports.

Its so obvious that the members of this form has not seen the light,and insist to visualize a force configuration large and powerfull in support of the USA ,as it has not jet dawned upon the members that Canada is not only vulnerable to terrorist attacks ,but very open and exposed to a form of economic terrorism.

This could be more devastating than dropping a actual bomb on on of your cities. :skull:

 

[joe]

Sapper6, ref your last that we need to "transform", ya wanna expand on that? What skills, what eqpt, what role, and what trg?

 

[Spr.Earl]

Sapper6, ref your last that we need to "transform", ya wanna expand on that? What skills, what eqpt, what role, and what trg?

A Sapper Submarine?

 

[kj_gully]

Hi again fellow wannabees, usedtobees and nevergunnabees, its me again. been away, and one of you was kind enough to acknowledge my post with an IM. Thanx coursemate & divebuddy, was good to hear from you. For seadog, if you ever drift into this thread again, the points you bring up are factual, but not really in the current role for our combat diver . There are divers in Canada today, actually probably right this minute inspecting the hulls of ships and barges as they enter our naval ports in Halifax and Esquimalt. That would likely remain a Naval responsibility should we ever deploy overseas.I feel that it is because the UK has Marines that they can deal with Littoral ops( see my last post if you dunno what littoral means) In fact recent (post 9-11) deployments to the gulf have used divers extensively in close protection and jetty and anchorage surveys, as well as shore based EOD ( a little dig to sappers who started the EOD troop thread) > Our combat divers really have an identity problem. Any senior engineer who calls youall field engineers would much rather have divers perform " engineer tasks underwater". bridge piers, patching rafts, find lost kit,safety standby for amphibious ops, hell maybe even blow up an obstacle or 2. You really don't need or should carry a gun for that, someone might get hurt. The guys that call youall Combat Engineers want lots of scrim and campaint, no bubbles, maximum firepower and sabotage, partisan linkup ops, deep recon with no support or hope of recovery if you are captured or fired at with more than a BB gun. Somewhere in the middle is where you fit, but how fun is it to practice that?

 

[Sea-dog]

kj_gully, Hi !  

I am participating in quite a few threads, EOD, IED,Combat divers and many more.
It is my intention just to stimulate and activate my Canadian buddies in this forum to be creative and use some imagination during our lively,sometimes heated but always professional discussions in our endeavours to find answers for the problems facing the Canadian Forces especially during the post 9/11 era.

I believe sincerely,that the Canadian Defence Forces can draw on the hard earned experience, and mistakes made by Israel and South Africa during years of combat.

The identity crises within the CF,is normal.
It is always difficult to find that niche in the whole structure for those forces that specialize in one or other field.This being more difficult during peacetime,as we try to SIMULATE battle conditions during realtime evaluation in support of restructuring or tasking units with new combat duties.
The inter- unit rivalry does not help either.In it's self a good thing to improve moral.

However all of the above will disappear,when faced with a real and present danger.These lessons learned by Israel and South Africa,and paid for in blood by mistakes made in ignorance or by being over confidence while to often underestimating the enemy!

It is essential that by doing a honest evaluation, of the growing threat to Canada, both from within and abroad,based on the operational experience gained while fighting in Iraq, Bosnia and Afghanistan will clarify all those questions with regards to your force structure, and allocation of operational duties.

When faced with a real threat,specially on Canadian soil you WILL bond,integrate and fuse into a fighting force to be reckoned with.
I just hope that the Canadian public will wake up,and realize before it is to late,that you need a new DEFENCE STRUCTURE,to combat the growing NEW THREAT.

Never forget; "The mistakes of peacetime.......are the disasters of wartime !" :skull:

Navy Divers,Bubbles Up !

 

[Sapper6]

I am participating in quite a few threads, EOD, IED,Combat divers and many more.
It is my intention just to stimulate and activate my Canadian buddies in this forum to be creative and use some imagination during our lively,sometimes heated but always professional discussions in our endeavours to find answers for the problems facing the Canadian Forces especially during the post 9/11 era.

I believe sincerely,that the Canadian Defence Forces can draw on the hard earned experience, and mistakes made by Israel and South Africa during years of combat....

Sea-dog,

    Always good to see your posts, keep 'em coming! 

    Any "history", from an Israeli or South African perspective, you want to share with us regarding lessons learned would be appreciated.

S6

Dive Army!

 

[patrick666]

If any of you have interests or questions about Combat Diving, I found this on their WEBSITE(go figure!) :

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/ael/pubs/300-006/B-GL-361/007/FP-001/B-GL-361-007-FP-001.pdf

150pgs of enlightenment. Enjoy.

Cheers.

*starts reading*

 

[Sea-dog]

Hi S6,
       Long time no see !

I believe that no one can really give you any advice.Times have changed,the enemies of the free world have changed.What was once just isolated incidences,some where in a remote part of the world has now developed into a global threat.

Creating a good intelligence network in support of your national defence requirement is essential, HOWEVER more important is to ACT on good intelligence even when it seem unlikely,or sounds impossible at the time.Good examples of past failures : Pearl Harbour ,The Yum Kippur WAR ,and more recently the 9/11 disaster.

I believe that "Intelligence Sniping" in search of enemies is the new philosophy of the post 9/11 era.
Going hand in hand with the above theory is probably the most important fact of all,...........NEVER underestimate your enemy.
It has been proven here in Israel,and in the USA that technology alone is not the only remedy to ensure victory.

It is in view of the above statement that I maintain the importance of divers in the military.The type of diving units, whether Army,Navy or Special Forces divers, will be the answer to your specific needs, is something that only you can determine.
I believe that all of the above units should be maintained,modernised and tailored to fit the specific needs of the Canadian Defence Force. Although each of the units should have their own operational niche it is essnential to have some intergration,but most of all a lot of cooperation to ensure flexibility of the armed forces.

The quality of the man on the ground is ultimately one of the ingredients of success and victory in war.
It is therefore essential to have targeted and strict selection ,free of sociopolitical or ideological factors.
Performance testing through combat environment simulation is essential to ensure that only the best operators enter into the diving units."THE MORE SWEAT ON THE TRAINING FIELD,......THE LESS BLOOD ON THE BATTLE FIELD !"

The very long and rugged coast line accompanied by inland waterways makes Canada very vulnerable,and should be a serious point of concern to you all.Terrorist have used commercial shipping,and fishing vessels here in the Middle East, to drop while in transit specially prepared rafts or watertight containers filled with weapons and explosives in to the sea,only to be picked up later by their supporters and quickly hidden underground just to be used at a later date against their host or enemy.

We here in Israel have learned some very important lessons in the past,and it is only by constantly being alert,flexible and with some imagination backed by good intelligence that we have foiled several,but not all attempts of smuggling weapons in some ingenious ways.

Finally....."Prepare for the worst and hope for the best !" It is often the obvious that is over looked,that decides the end result of many battles past and future.
It is clear that CSIS is on top of things,......WETHER the Canadian Government and the Canadian Defence force will be convinced of the clear and present danger facing you all is something only the future will hold.

Navy Divers "Bubbles Up !"
Sea-Dog  

 

[54/102 CEF]

The recently retired KING OF DIVERS was seen on the Combat Diver Page last night - looking for smoked fish......

He found a fish - someone had already smoked it 

Check it out at

http://www.donlowconcrete.com/CDAC

 

[Sapper6]

The recently retired KING OF DIVERS was seen on the Combat Diver Page last night - looking for smoked fish...... 

Not sure if he is the KING of Divers, but I had a Hampson sighting this past week in Ottawa.  'Ole John-boy was up at the big Military Equipment convention schlepping something.  Ah, some things never change.  Love the man!

S6

 

[Sapper6]

INFO

Attended the D Engr conference 3 weeks ago and the question of the relevancy of Combat Divers within the new CDS' vision of the Expeditionary Forces came up...

D Engr (Col Lewis) kept the discussion short as he didn't see a dilemma!  With 80% of the World's population living within the first 100 kms of the shore line (littorals) and usually around large outflowing freshwater rivers = lots of job opportunities for combat divers in future conflicts.

I know that our ops in Afghanistan don't demonstrate that right now however, I doubt the "snakes" will always operate in a land-locked country hiding away in mountains.  Our inland waterways are primary targets.

S6

 

[aesop081]

INFO

Attended the D Engr conference 3 weeks ago and the question of the relevancy of Combat Divers within the new CDS' vision of the Expeditionary Forces came up...

D Engr (Col Lewis) kept the discussion short as he didn't see a dilemma!   With 80% of the World's population living within the first 100 kms of the shore line (littorals) and usually around large outflowing freshwater rivers = lots of job opportunities for combat divers in future conflicts.

I know that our ops in Afghanistan don't demonstrate that right now however, I doubt the "snakes" will always operate in a land-locked country hiding away in mountains.   Our inland waterways are primary targets.

S6

Agreed.  We must not make the misstake of taking the lessons of ops in afghanistan to be the "be all end all" of what we need for capabilities.  As you said, our inland waterways are prime targets for terrorist attacks.  IMHO, we must not forget to maintain capabilities to fight a more conventional ennemy. I beleive that combat divers offer the army a unique and very flexible capability that is, unfortunately , undervalued by senior commanders.

CHIMO

 

[392]

I believe that combat divers offer the army a unique and very flexible capability that is, unfortunately , undervalued by senior commanders.

So true.

It doesn't help either that a lot of the time, even Engineer commanders do not know how to employ us properly. Never mind the continuous bunfight about what we should and should not be allowed to do   :

On another note - in September 2000 at Camp Lejeune during the IRF(L) ex, there was some Major from Ottawa there evaluating the concept of amphibuous ops / CEF (to include Combat Divers) as we went ashore to secure the beach. Wonder how far that idea will go, or will it get filed under "G" in the waste paper basket in his cubicle back in Ottawa?

 

[Spr.Earl]

We can't make the same mistake as we have done with EOD,we got lazy now we are scrambling,the same would happen with our Divers if we get lax.

 

[Chimo]

In my humble opinion, we have not paid enough attention to our Combat Divers. With the new direction of the CF, I see a great opportunity for the Combat Diver to be a force multiplier.

We need to update our doctrine for them and get away from the traditional tasks like planting mines and swim site safety duties. These Soldiers are some of the most motivated and qualified in any Regiment.

I feel we need to make Combat Diving a full time responsibility, rather then a secondary duty, and write doctrine for the training they are doing now, IE, sneak and peeks, insertions by helo, snatch and grab ops, etc.

With the formation of the Special Operations Group (SOG) I see a chance for the Engineers to raise their profile even higher.

 

[392]

....swim site safety duties

We do not do this anymore since we stopped swimming APC's. Even on exchanges/tour we don't because generally the host nation has their own systems in place.

Or this:

snatch and grab ops

This is not anywhere remotely the job of a combat diver, and never has been. There is already an organization for this, and it does not reside in any of the CER's or ESR.

These Soldiers are some of the most motivated in any Regiment

I agree wholeheartedly with this  ;D

I feel we need to make Combat Diving a full time responsibility, rather then a secondary duty, and write doctrine....

You are preaching to the choir my man. This is something that the combat diver community has been screaming for for years, but considering the Engineer Corps does not even have the manpower to muster full squadrons for tours without outside help, I doubt this will become a reality any time soon. Not to mention that that would equate to "stacking" the Sp Sqn's with many of the more motivated soldiers, and leaving gaping holes in the remainder of the organization. This may not be the best way to explain it, but you get my drift.

As for the doctrine, a little birdy told me there was a writing board in G'town the last couple of weeks WRT changing parts of the current CTP / QS and the associated ECL's to reflect what we've been asking for all along. I have yet to track the individual down who was supposedly there and get the skinny right from the horse's mouth, but don't forget that right now, a Combat Diver's job is to "extend engineering operations into the water" and the current doctrine does just that. All the extra little stuff like LRRP's, amphibious landings, etc. that the teams practice now, are technically not part of the vision, but we all know that being prepared for the unexpected is never a bad thing.

Once I get the info from him, I'll post back.....

Bubbles Up!

 

[Spr.Earl]

"As for the doctrine, a little birdy told me there was a writing board in G'town the last couple of weeks WRT changing parts of the current CTP / QS and the associated ECL's to reflect what we've been asking for all along. I have yet to track the individual down who was supposedly there and get the skinny right from the horse's mouth, but don't forget that right now, a Combat Diver's job is to "extend engineering operations into the water" and the current doctrine does just that. All the extra little stuff like LRRP's, amphibious landings, etc. that the teams practice now, are technically not part of the vision, but we all know that being prepared for the unexpected is never a bad thing."

But those little extras our divers are getting as you say are a bonus.

The Navy has it's diver's but they don't do beach recce's,clearance etc..
I see the extras our divers are getting is a must as they may become a core of a new broadened breed of Diver as we don't have SEALS,SBS  etc. we must keep these skills up in the Corp