All things Charlottesville (merged)

[Remius]

If the folks on the anti slavery side of this argument really want to make a difference,  how's about they do something about slavery today?  Apparently there are more people enslaved today than at any other time before in history.  Instead of bitching about events over 150 years ago, do something constructive today, for people actually in peril.  Not long dead corpses... :2c:

Except that this thread isn't about that now is it.

 

[jmt18325]

While the message of hate and intolerance being displayed by the white supremacy groups in NC is wrong and distasteful, what happened cannot be totally laid at their feet.  As the saying goes, "it takes two to Tango", there were those there on the opposite side of the coin who assisted in accelerating crap going south swiftly.

Uhhh, no.  Stuff goes south as soon as Nazi's show up.  People opposing them are doing great work, IMO.

 

[Remius]

You seem really obsessed with trying to fly Khdar around on a red herring.  But sure, it sounds like a great argument to have in 152 years when someone tries to rename a Canadian Forces base in Khdars honour.

So what will a renaming crusade of US bases accomplish? Do you think doing so will heal all the racial tensions in the US? Does it seem like a good start? Stop at bases or should the US delete any and all references to all things confederate?

No different than the red herrings of equating the removal of confederate rebel traitor racists statues being the harbinger of removing statues of whashington or the pyramids that have been bandied about...

 

[Jarnhamar]

Uhhh, no.  Stuff goes south as soon as Nazi's show up.  People opposing them are doing great work, IMO.

CNN article on Antifa:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/18/us/unmasking-antifa-anti-fascists-hard-left/index.html

Yup, looks like a great bunch.

 

[Remius]

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/18/us/unmasking-antifa-anti-fascists-hard-left/index.html

Yup, great people.

No they aren't.  The problem is that the antifa types have found a bogey man that no one is really sympathetic to or hate even more than them.  They managed to get a martyr in the process.  The alt right is accelerating this with their own actions and legitimizing what the antifa is doing.  Especially with nut bars taking matters into their own hands.

I have no sympathy for the alt right movement.  At all.  But I fear what the antifa might become through this process.  Their perceived victories might embolden them to take on other groups or establishments they happen to disagree with. 

 

[Jarnhamar]

No different than the red herrings of equating the removal of confederate rebel traitor racists statues being the harbinger of removing statues of whashington or the pyramids that have been bandied about...

You don't see a difference between trying to drag my personal views an opinions about a Canadian citizen fighting one of our allies in 2017 into a debate about racism and renaming objects in the USA? Riiiiight.

No they aren't.  The problem is that the antifa types have found a bogey man that no one is really sympathetic to or hate even more than them.  They managed to get a martyr in the process.  The alt right is accelerating this with their own actions and legitimizing what the antifa is doing.  Especially with nut bars taking matters into their own hands.

I have no sympathy for the alt right movement.  At all.  But I fear what the antifa might become through this process.  Their perceived victories might embolden them to take on other groups or establishments they happen to disagree with. 

Antifa paved the path for what we're seeing now with the POS racist nazi wanna be's. They were accusing people of being Nazis and punching them in the head before the other actual nazi losers decided to mobilize. Both groups want to shut down free speech. Both groups are using violence to try and dissuade the other. Well, I'd say maybe they're past that. They just want to smash each other. They're a violent mob looking for a protest.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Except that this thread isn't about that now is it.

I beg to differ, it's connected. 

 

[ModlrMike]

If the alt-right are the black shirts, then antifa are the brown shirts. Two sides of the same coin.

 

[Remius]

I beg to differ, it's connected.

It isn't.  This is about Americans coming to terms with their own sordid past.  A past that still permeates to this day.  The US has a race issue that is coming to a head.

Slavery in other countries isnt the issue and is irrelevant to this conversation. This isn't about anti slavery.  The alt right can never get that back, so they'll try and settle for segregation and agitation. 

 

[FJAG]

Okay. I think it's time for a musical interlude.

For those who haven't already Googled torchlight parades, here's a link to a properly done one with precision marching and no violence.

This is the entry march portion of the Grosser Zapfenstreich for the 50th birthday of the Bundeswehr.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VarayMJDDTE

In answer to your questions:

1. The Grosser Zapfenstreich is literally the equivalent of the British/Canadian Tattoo ceremonies;

2. The ceremony is first mentioned in 1596 and in its present form goes back to approximately 1838;

3. No these are not Nazis but the modern Guard Battalion of the German Defence Ministry in Berlin;

4. The dark uniforms of the torch bearers are not SS but Air Force blue.

5. Yes. I too wish that the narrator would shut up more

Enjoy

:cheers:

 

[Infanteer]

If the alt-right are the black shirts, then antifa are the brown shirts. Two sides of the same coin.

Sure.  Who are the citizens of Charlottesville and other people who showed up to oppose the ethno-nationalists?

A BBC source (ie: no skin in the CNN/FOX feud) provides perspective on the situation on the ground.  Note his perspective on the counter-protesters:

http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-40952796/what-trump-said-versus-what-i-saw

Saying that "both sides were to blame" is a gross oversimplification that ignores the large numbers of people who showed up to demonstrate against an odious racial movement.  Lumping them in with "antifa" is about as intellectually dishonest as the numerous accusations of racism I've seen flying around.

 

[mariomike]

I'm not interested in his seventy years as a private citizen.

I'm interested in his effect on racism in America as POTUS.

This is not cherry picking. It is added for reference to the discussion ( Trigger Warning ),

https://www.google.ca/search?source=hp&q=trump+racism&oq=trump+racism&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l4.3310.7879.0.8454.14.12.0.0.0.0.161.1672.0j12.12.0.foo%2Cersl%3D1%2Cfett%3D1%2Cewh%3D0%2Cnso-enksa%3D0%2Cnso-enfk%3D1%2Cnso-usnt%3D1%2Cnso-qnt-npqp%3D0-1%2Cnso-qnt-npdq%3D0-45%2Cnso-qnt-npt%3D0-09%2Cnso-qnt-ndc%3D300%2Ccspa-dspm-nm-mnp%3D0-045%2Ccspa-dspm-nm-mxp%3D0-1125%2Cnso-unt-npqp%3D0-15%2Cnso-unt-npdq%3D0-25%2Cnso-unt-npt%3D0-06%2Cnso-unt-ndc%3D300%2Ccspa-uipm-nm-mnp%3D0-0075%2Ccspa-uipm-nm-mxp%3D0-0525.3..0...1.1.64.psy-ab..2.12.1667.0..35i39k1j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i3k1j0i20k1.KYQ-ONBjp_k

 

[jollyjacktar]

It isn't.  This is about Americans coming to terms with their own sordid past.  A past that still permeates to this day.  The US has a race issue that is coming to a head.

Slavery in other countries isnt the issue and is irrelevant to this conversation. This isn't about anti slavery.  The alt right can never get that back, so they'll try and settle for segregation and agitation.

You're missing my point.  There are many whom are upset with the slavery past in the US, yes.  The people, however whom were victims and perpetrators are long since dead and gone.  Now, today's folks want to see the graven images of the past taken away but that won't change shit about what's and who's dead and gone. 
They could better channel that anger and determination to making changes in the world today instead of tearing what they have apart.  And that is relevant.  Feel free to disagree as much as you wish, it's a free country.

 

[Loachman]

Their perceived victories might embolden them to take on other groups or establishments they happen to disagree with.

They are emboldened when nobody in the mainstream media or Democratic Party criticizes them, and when municipalities (Berkeley and Charlottesville) order their police to stand back and watch - or possibly even stoke the violence by directing one group into the other.

"The Fight for Charlottesville: The Left Wing War on the Freedom of Speech": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxjWYUybnc8&t=70s

"Charlottesville Police Criticized over Reaction to Violence": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQghLuLYRb8&t=200s

"Tucker Carlson SLAMS Charlottesville Mayor for Lack of Police Presence": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fzlQ-eEw_M

"Did 'good people' attend Charlottesville rally?": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLPhSWG4GG0

 

[ModlrMike]

Sure.  Who are the citizens of Charlottesville and other people who showed up to oppose the ethno-nationalists?

A BBC source (ie: no skin in the CNN/FOX feud) provides perspective on the situation on the ground.  Note his perspective on the counter-protesters:

http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-40952796/what-trump-said-versus-what-i-saw

Saying that "both sides were to blame" is a gross oversimplification that ignores the large numbers of people who showed up to demonstrate against an odious racial movement.  Lumping them in with "antifa" is about as intellectually dishonest as the numerous accusations of racism I've seen flying around.

I didn't lump them in. I singled out antifa specifically. I know that there were many fine people at the counter protest who only want the best for their nation. Neither did I say that both sides were to blame. I said that two distinct groups were to blame; a wholly different thing. That they are on opposing sides of the issue is coincidental.

 

[George Wallace]

You're missing my point.  There are many whom are upset with the slavery past in the US, yes.  The people, however whom were victims and perpetrators are long since dead and gone.  Now, today's folks want to see the graven images of the past taken away but that won't change shit about what's and who's dead and gone. 
They could better channel that anger and determination to making changes in the world today instead of tearing what they have apart.  And that is relevant.  Feel free to disagree as much as you wish, it's a free country.

Good thing we aren't talking about Rome.  Just think of all the statues and memorials to less than benevolent Emperors that would be torn down.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

People should protest when white-supremacists try to take over their town. I certainly would. White supremacists are not part of the right, and they should be rejected wherever they appear. Do not deflect on their behalf.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

You don't see a difference between trying to drag my personal views an opinions about a Canadian citizen fighting one of our allies in 2017 into a debate about racism and renaming objects in the USA? Riiiiight.

But that's just it- your personal views are wholly relevant since they colour how you view the world. Khadr and Lee, in respect to their nations, are the same (one could easily argue that Lee was worse since he commanded an army but I digress).

I pointed out that there is an irony that you are here defending Lee and the Confederates while having strong views on Khadr and islamic terrorism. But it's the same sort of conflict that is driving most of the debate for the people who want to see the statues stay. The statues represent a fake, wholly invented (fake news if you will) and romanticized viewpoint of a south that never existed. So the question has to be begged- is it that they want to the statues to stay or is it that they want to maintain the fake views of the south during the pre-war era.

The real "red herring" in this debate is the claims that removing statues from public areas is destroying history. If they're moved to a museum or other area and can be denoted with both sides of a story than what's been lost in reality? Perceptions and history change a lot as different information becomes available. This isn't a bad thing- narratives develop and should develop as no one is perfect. It's important to understand that Lee was in reality a poor general (his early victories were as much a result of worse union leadership than his own brilliance) and a generally poor person but succeeded in becoming a symbol of the confederacy through his personality (in the same way Douglas MacArthur, another poor general and person did). It's equally important to understand that the pre-civil war south was a nearly destitute, rural, farming community with little development and high rates of child mortality, disease, and poverty. Slaves were important since the farmers couldn't afford other labour since they were largely poor or bordering on bankruptcy.

 

[Remius]

Good thing we aren't talking about Rome.  Just think of all the statues and memorials to less than benevolent Emperors that would be torn down.

Most of those have already been taken down or wrecked by the Catholic Church.  Apples and oranges.

 

[mariomike]

Good thing we aren't talking about Rome.