All things Charlottesville (merged)

[The Bread Guy]

A quick note:  Since a lot of threads were starting to include detailed discussion about the latest from Charlottesville and the aftermath, I've pulled together all the Charlottesville material here to provide one focus of discussion from that incident.  This'll leave the U.S. Politics, Radio Chatter meme, and Non-Muslim extremist threads room to just deal more broadly with those issues OUTSIDE the Charlottesville events.

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[Rifleman62]

Loachman:

Both extremist sides are wrong. Both disgust me. Both are dangerous. Both need to be publicly denounced and dealt with.

They were and look what happened.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Breaking news:  ;D

 

[Kat Stevens]

No, they don't.  Monuments that celebrate villains are quite different than books that ensure they're never forgotten.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/the-books-have-been-burning-1.887172

 

[kratz]

CBC.ca

At least U.S. Secret Service is investigating the allegation. As many have mentioned, both sides are espousing extremist views.

Missouri politician posts she hopes 'Trump is assassinated'

Democrat Maria Chappelle-Nadal has so far resisted calls to step down

More at the Link... 

 

[Rifleman62]

Nothing will happen to her otherwise the SS (Secret Service) will be labeled racist.

 

[Jarnhamar]

So is the US going to rename military bases named after confederate generals?

https://www.google.ca/amp/amp.charlotteobserver.com/opinion/op-ed/article167332992.html

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

So is the US going to rename military bases named after confederate generals?

https://www.google.ca/amp/amp.charlotteobserver.com/opinion/op-ed/article167332992.html

Why wouldn't they? Just from a logical standpoint, having a base named after the confederacy would be like naming a new camp "Camp Osama" since, you know, the confederacy was the enemy of the union, who won the war.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Sure, but do they stop with taking down every confederate statue and renaming all US confederate inspired military bases?  Should they they dismantle the the Luxor in Las Vegas because its a giant pyramid and you better believe the pyramids represent slavery.

What about the town of Bismarck?
Should the US rename German towns because Nazis?

1. Anaheim, California
2. Carlsbad, California
3. Schaumburg, Illinois
4. Germantown, Maryland
5. Frederick, Maryland
6. Hoffman Estates, Illinois
7. New Berlin, Wisconsin
8. Germantown, Tennessee
9. Bremerton, Washington
10. New Braunfels, Texas

Should  the US ban the game StarCraft because one of the governments is called the Confederacy of man?

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

Sure, but do they stop with taking down every confederate statue and renaming all US confederate inspired military bases?  Should they they dismantle the the Luxor in Las Vegas because its a giant pyramid and you better believe the pyramids represent slavery.

What about the town of Bismarck?
Should the US rename German towns because Nazis?

1. Anaheim, California
2. Carlsbad, California
3. Schaumburg, Illinois
4. Germantown, Maryland
5. Frederick, Maryland
6. Hoffman Estates, Illinois
7. New Berlin, Wisconsin
8. Germantown, Tennessee
9. Bremerton, Washington
10. New Braunfels, Texas

Should  the US ban the game StarCraft because one of the governments is called the Confederacy of man?

I feel like you're reaching here....

If the name of the town was "Hitleropia" or something like that, than yes, you would probably rename it. There's also a difference between the name of the city being the same as that that exists in an enemy nation than directly naming something after the war leaders of said nation.

There's an irony in your argument, since I know where you stand on the Khadr situation. In that case, you have very expressly stated that he shouldn't have received money because he's a terrorist/traitor. You may also have been one of the people stating that he should have his citizenship stripped, though I can't confirm. General Lee was a traitor to the US, make no mistake. He engaged in a protracted rebellion to defend the right to own other people. Luckily, he was really really bad at it and lost. However, if you believe that changing the names on bases because they're named after traitors is wrong, than how is that reconciled with your views on Khadr? How can you on one hand be vehemently against one traitor and vehemently for other traitors? By your first theory, Lee et al should have been stripped of their citizenships and sent back to their home countries. What if the muslim community built a Khadr statue? Surely this would just be them demonstrating their culture, no? No need to tear it down, right?

Pyramids weren't built by slavery, just FYI.

 

[EpicBeardedMan]

Should  the US ban the game StarCraft because one of the governments is called the Confederacy of man?

RIP General Edmund Duke.

 

[BeyondTheNow]

Entire Presidential Arts Council quits due to handling of Charlottesville incident.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/us-politics/entire-presidential-arts-council-quits-over-trumps-charlottesville-remarks/article36028598/?arc404=true

 

[George Wallace]

I feel like you're reaching here....

Actually, there are many things more than statues and memorials named after famous Confederates.  General Lee has a tank named after him.  Should the American Army rename all its vehicles named after famous Confederate Generals?  Should tank monuments, collections, etc. be destroyed because they are named after famous Confederate Generals?  Where will the silliness end?

How about that mountainside that has the largest high relief sculpture in the world, the Confederate Memorial Carving, which depicts three Confederate figures of the Civil War, President Jefferson Davis and Generals Robert E. Lee and Thomas J. "Stonewall" Jackson.?  Are they going to dynamite that?

http://www.waymarking.com/gallery/image.aspx?f=1&guid=4f1fcb4f-d4e7-4eb4-bfdf-3542ed268cfd&gid=3

 

[Remius]

Two good articles.

https://www.economist.com/blogs/kaffeeklatsch/2017/08/charlottesville-context

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-myth-of-the-kindly-general-lee/529038/

Puts a few things into context.

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=Bird_Gunner45]

Pyramids weren't built by slavery, just FYI.
[/quote]

Whoops. Well that's certainly embarrassing, you're right. Touche. We should still tear it down because its cultural approciation though

As for the remainder is it really researching?  With the  omg Nazis! Paranoia you don't think that's something people may seriously suggest?

Strip General Lee of his citizenship. And rall neo-nazis and antifa terrorists. And khdar. (can I use the SJW word of the month; false equalvincy  jk)

I'm not for one traitor and against another my friend.  Renaming  US bases en mass is ridiclous and virtue signalling.  (Unless they let the internet rename the bases. Like basey mcbase face.).

My grandfather landed at Normandy and a great uncle (Russian resistance)  was murdered by Nazis. I don't care that a town in Ontario is named swastika.

 

[Remius]

Whoops. Well that's certainly embarrassing, you're right. Touche. We should still tear it down because its cultural approciation though

As for the remainder is it really researching?  With the  omg Nazis! Paranoia you don't think that's something people may seriously suggest?

Strip General Lee of his citizenship. And rall neo-nazis and antifa terrorists. And khdar. (can I use the SJW word of the month; false equalvincy  jk)

I'm not for one traitor and against another my friend.  Renaming  US bases en mass is ridiclous and virtue signalling.  (Unless they let the internet rename the bases. Like basey mcbase face.).

My grandfather landed at Normandy and a great uncle (Russian resistance)  was murdered by Nazis. I don't care that a town in Ontario is named swastika.

And why should you care? It wasn't named after a nazi symbol way back in 1907.  Unlike many of the confederate statues that were placed during the Jim Crow years to assert white supremacy in those areas.  Not out of any fondness for historical figures...

 

[The Bread Guy]

Maybe a be extreme, but attached are a couple of views about how to deal with history where someone was screwed over by someone else.

Also, former Soviet countries are going through this, too, with taking down statues of Lenin/Stalin.  Although Russia always seems to get upset, #MoreThanOneHistory to contend with.

Finally, if history must not be erased, how many proponents of keeping the objecting statues have suggested including plaques highlighting the less-than-wholesome elements of history?  I haven't seen any, but I stand to be corrected.

U.S. base & vehicle names?  Good question -- that one I honestly haven't given too much thought to, so I'm open to back & forth.

Finally, Mother Jones has an interesting article re:  when a lot of the Conferderate folk statues were built with a chart that at leasts suggests "rubbing their noses in it" as one potential theory.

 

[Loachman]

Loachman:
They were and look what happened.

The rightist thugs are still getting a disproportionate amount of the blame, and anybody who points that out gets shouted down, labelled, and insulted.

"The Little Boy Who Cried 'NAZI;' | Louder With Crowder": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnrvDS7yvS0

And some other stuff that I dredged up...

"Ben Shapiro Destroys Antifa": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUXJh65aSoU

"Sheriff Clarke 'proud' of Trump's Charlottesville response": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAI_AiF-3hc

"'Let's Blow Up Mount Rushmore' Says Vice": http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-08-17/lets-blow-mount-rushmore-says-vice

There appears to be some murkiness and complexity in the background. Was/is the event organizer a leftie or a rightie? "Report: ‘Unite the Right’ Organizer Jason Kessler Was Obama Supporter Involved With Occupy Movement": http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-08-14/report-%E2%80%98unite-right%E2%80%99-organizer-jason-kessler-was-occupy-movement-obama-supporter-8-m

"Alt Right Activists Are Being Outed on Twitter and Fired From Their Jobs": http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-08-13/alt-right-activists-are-being-outed-twitter-and-fired-their-jobs - There is a reason why Antifa thugs wear masks, although it did not do any good for this guy at the Berkeley riots earlier:

"SHOTS FIRED: Tucker Carlson Interviews Attorney for Berkeley Bike Lock Basher": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ht8CUJdF8LM
"The Bikelock Fugitive of Berkeley": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muoR8Td44UE
"The Bikelock Fugitive of Berkeley - Update": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEuJ0hvepLg
"The Bike Lock Professor Eric Clanton waging terrorist attack at Berkeley": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBw_BlurdIE
"Bikelock Monster Eric Clanton RateMyProfessor Feedback Part1": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa4zLuBL7Pw

I watched a lot of Berkeley (and other) Riot footage a few months ago, and developed a fairly good appreciation for both sides in those. The reasons and dynamics behind those riots and Charlottesville are different (other than Antifa's love of violence), as there was no racial aspect. The right side dressed and equipped themselves defensively, threw no rocks (and actually moved rocks thrown at them safely to their rear from where they would not be re-thrown), and did not use small explosive devices or chemical agents.

 

[jollyjacktar]

This is starting to look like what was done in ancient Egypt with Ramses II, IIRC, he fell out of favour after death and all references to him were chiseled out.
A whitewashing of history to salve the masses and power brokers.

Egyptologists were struggling to explain and understand the missing period due to records being changed.  So, if you completely strip out one side of a history for a particular era, does it make what history that's left somewhat irreverent and pointless?

(just looking for discussion, not taking sides per se)

 

[Remius]

This is starting to look like what was done in ancient Egypt with Ramses II, IIRC, he fell out of favour after death and all references to him were chiseled out.
A whitewashing of history to salve the masses and power brokers.

Egyptologists were struggling to explain and understand the missing period due to records being changed.  So, if you completely strip out one side of a history for a particular era, does it make what history that's left somewhat irreverent and pointless?

(just looking for discussion, not taking sides per se)

Not quite.  I think if you read the article in the economist I posted a few threads up you'll see how the Germans handle things when it comes to uncomfortable history. 

If anything the Jim Crow era of portraying the confederates as noble and romantic and creating some sort of southern myth around them is where the real whitewashing began.  I think what were finally seeing is a settling of accounts in that regard.