All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)

[Michael OLeary]

Hey!  Are you suggesting my DWAN improvement memos don't get read and actioned?

I am quite certain that some action is taken with each and every such memo.

 

[Jungle]

I am quite certain that some action is taken with each and every such memo.

I am quite certain that some one action is taken with each and every such memo.

 

[Neill McKay]

Yes, there are many more pressing issues confronting the CF today.  But at some point the CF institutionally will have to move.  It is eminently preferable to make such movement on your own time, in your own way - waiting for a court order to do things in short order means the institution has much less control over its destiny and will generally be more damaging that a self-directed process of change.

The argument of inevitability, if not already known as a logical fallacy, should be.  (I prefer to call it the "barbarians at the gates" argument.)

The truth of it, I would say, is that there are still enough people in Canadian society who think men wearing earrings looks bad -- and men not being allowed to wear earrings is not an unreasonable rule -- that there is no particular pressure to change that rule.  Ditto for the hippie hair.

 

[Jarnhamar]

The argument of inevitability, if not already known as a logical fallacy, should be.  (I prefer to call it the "barbarians at the gates" argument.)

The truth of it, I would say, is that there are still enough people in Canadian society who think men wearing earrings looks bad -- and men not being allowed to wear earrings is not an unreasonable rule -- that there is no particular pressure to change that rule.  Ditto for the hippie hair.

I can throw out a few things that we allow in uniform that looks a heck of a lot worse than some dude with an earing.

 

[OldSolduer]

I can throw out a few things that we allow in uniform that looks a heck of a lot worse than some dude with an earing.

So can I, like the oversize ones, of both sexes.

But we're not talking about ear rings. As far as I'm concerned ear rings belong on women. If civilian males wish to wear them, fine.
Not in our Army.

 

[Edward Campbell]

:stop:

 

[OldSolduer]

My apologies. Got derailed.

 

[vonGarvin]

Modified to stop.



And for any person wishing to buy me suds to make amends: save your effort.  I'll kindly drink elsewhere, thank you very much.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Well, there goes another nice family dinner ruined.

 

[Foxhound]

@ recceguy: Zing!  ;D

Further to my last, and again back in the day...

Which were, by the way, the late 70's - early 80's.  Back then, your average guy sported acres of feather-cut, blow-dried, heavily-sprayed, (probably dyed,) curling-ironed, saloned and permed tonsorial ellegance.  To which were usually added; sideburns, (almost to the point of being muttonchops,) moustaches that reached down below the jawline, left-over hippie beards, and really stupid-looking clothes, in any combination.

Back then, the clean-cut look visually separated my tribe from the others, and that's pretty much the way we liked it.  The only ones in the unit that wanted to grow beards, were those Pioneers who were comfortable with them, and those that really, really wanted beards.  But not so they would look like Pioneers!  No, "It's the windburn from all the stand-to's we did on that last winter ex.  Broiled my face, man!"

Probably not the same thing today though.  I mean, your average guy, well, there isn't one, is there?  What's average?  Clean-shaven?  Long-hair?  Short?  Van-Dyke beard?  Mustache?  Makeup?  Facial tattoo?  Skull piercings?  Nostril piercings?  Dopey chains connecting your skull piercings to your nostril piercings?  (Buddy, I want to be YOUR hand-to-hand instructor!)

So, how about this?  We, (you  ) as a uniformed body, set a uniform standard, that is easy to follow, allowing for boys and girls, Sikhs and Satanists, and do the best with that.  Individual cases should be dealt with using a reasonable amount of common sense when it comes to sorting out the ones that really, really want a beard"have a bad infection from that sand flea that bit me here on my jaw", from the ones that actually need to be able to allow the beard to grow to be comfortable and operational in the field.  Allowances to be made for tradition,*cough* Navy *cough* of course.  ;D

 

[dogger1936]

Ihonestly have to say I agree with DApaterson, and he makes some very valid points. After training in germany we seen some wacky haircuts by some of our instructors. From EMO haircuts,mohawks etc. It did effect their teaching first as we were all...."hey that guy looks differnt!!" However their instruction was top notch once we got past that.

After a few bubbly wasser we got asking them about their dress regulations. basically they touch up their looks on their facial hair if there is a large parade however other than that they are free to do as they please.

The uniformity rules of the past were easy to enforce without anyone asking questions. Why do we all have to shave our beards? Cause everyone does. Why can't we wear earings in the mess? Cause everyone does. What we have created with our regulations is a mix of many cultures (some natives growning hair long, Metis with pony tails, Muslims with beards, women with earrings, cornroll haircuts,women with VERY unnatural hair colours disregarding the regs in other units (see em at tim hortons in passing), etc etc etc)


Basically we have created a pile of exceptions. Does having a beard make anyone less of a leader? in my mind no. Does a first nations male member with long braids of hair make him less effective than a woman soldier with long hair? I think not.

I remember getting a safety breif from a pioneer back in the late 90's in gagetown that resembled ZZ top, fought with soldiers in Afganistan with handlebar mustaches. yet growing a modest beard, or a goatee is inapproperate and a safety hazard?

I think DAPATERSON has a great point of asking the question WHY. Luckly there are officers like him who wonders why policy is in place. I personally just enforce the policy in the dress regulations on my small amount of subordinates. I hope one day we will get away from stringent personal grooming standards. It doesnt effect anything. A white guy with a beard looks no differnt than a muslim with a beard. One is because of religion one would be due to choice. The standards are there for beards....why can't we use one rule for all?

 

[Pusser]

Sanitation and Hygiene:
Canadian Food Inspection Agency
Beard covers required for meat, fish and dairy workers:
"3.8.3 Sanitary Practices
(4) Every person who enters or is in any area of a registered establishment where a meat product or an ingredient is exposed shall wear a hair covering and, if appropriate, a beard and moustache covering.":
http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/fssa/meavia/man/ch3/3-8e.shtml

2010
"OTTAWA—A Toronto meat packing plant...
Most other problems spotted by inspectors were less serious, including incomplete records, a cracked conveyor belt, ceiling condensation, peeling paint, an employee not wearing his beard net and “a large chunk of pastrami” stuck in the slicer after the production line had switched over to mortadella.":
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/830221--meat-packing-plant-caught-fudging-best-before-dates

Canadian Food Inspection Agency
2.2.8 Inspection Material and Equipment
"Each inspector must have the following items and use or wear them in the appropriate situations:
Attire:
"hair and (if applicable) beard covers without holes (not mesh/net types) in good condition":
http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/fssa/protra/est/ch2e.shtml

Ontario Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs:
Beard net: A disposable beard net keeps hair from your beard out of fish products.

Employee Hygiene:
"Employees should wear proper hair restraints, such as a hairnet or beard net":
http://www.nr.gov.nl.ca/agric/fsq/Employee_Hygiene.pdf

Reference:
Marriott, N. G. 1994. Principles of Food Sanitation, Third Edition. Chaplan and Hall. New York, NY.
Canadian Food Inspection Agency

US Navy:
"Military personnel with beards for medical reasons and civilian food service personnel must completely cover their beards with a "snood" or beard bag at all times while preparing, handling and serving food or while cleaning and sanitizing food contact surfaces.":
http://www.brooksidepress.org/Products/OperationalMedicine/DATA/operationalmed/Manuals/food/manual/section7/1-55.htm

"The United States Army, Air Force, and Marine Corps strictly ban beards on the basis of both hygiene and of the necessity of a good seal for gas masks.":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facial_hair_in_the_military#United_States

"U.S. Troops Question Military No-Beard Rules in Afghanistan":
"The military says it has good reasons for the beard ban for most American troops—including hygiene, soldierly discipline, and the ability to get a good seal on gas masks should troops need them.":
http://politics.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2008/11/17/us-troops-question-military-no-beard-rules-in-afghanistan.html

"The United States Army and Marine Corps banned beards on grounds of personal hygiene just before World War One but they are permitted for medical reasons, such as temporary skin irritations if needed.":
http://www.suite101.com/content/the-decline-of-beards-in-warfare-a4495

Most of the Canadian references here deal with processing plants, which I'm not talking about.  Although you will see the odd person wearing a beard net in some restaurants, it is by no means universal and I have never seen a bearded cook in the CF (and there are plenty) wearing a beard net.

Just because the guys who wrote the rules for the US Navy, Air Force and Marine Corps thinks beards are unhygenic, doesn't make it so.  The hair on your face is no more unhygenic than the hair on the top of your head.  Following the logic of some here, we should all be bathing in Neet on a regular basis.

 

[Pusser]

"Equal rights" in terms of dress is utter BS IMHO.  Men cut their hair, women wear bras.  Men grow beards, women wear skirts.  Suck it up and do as we say.  I mean, for crying out loud, if you don't like it, I offer you this advice:
GET OUT OF THE MILITARY AND MAKE ROOM FOR THOSE WHO WILL FOCUS ON THE IMPORTANT STUFF (LIKE BEING A GOOD SOLDIER/SAILOR/AIRMAN/AIRWOMAN).

GET A SHAVE AND A HAIRCUT WHEN ORDERED TO!

Remember, the military can order you to do things that other organisations cannot.  And we are expected to have a certain "look".  Being a volunteer force, if I hear one more person whinge about this bullshit, I'm going to have a f*cking coronary!  I mean, honest to God, people.

Following orders is not the issue here.  What is at issue is whether those orders ought to be given in the first place. 

 

[Michael OLeary]

Following orders is not the issue here.  What is at issue is whether those orders ought to be given in the first place.

Since an order to shave is not illegal to give, not unethical to give and not immoral (as long as we're only talking about men's facial hair), then the issue is actually to establish what mechanisms are available to a CF member to officially express their opinion that they don't like the order.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Following orders is not the issue here.  What is at issue is whether those orders ought to be given in the first place. 

Since an order to shave is not illegal to give, not unethical to give and not immoral (as long as we're only talking about men's facial hair), then the issue is actually to establish what mechanisms are available to a CF member to officially express their opinion that they don't like the order.

As the regulation and criteria are still on the books, if there is doubt as to the veracity of the wearer's motives and said motives can't be proven to satisfy the criteria (chit, religion, etc), the regulation wins and the order is legal and allowed, and should be given.

 

[dapaterson]

... just beware of ordering someone to remove their headdress for a prayer...

 

[Michael OLeary]

... just beware of ordering someone to remove their headdress for a prayer...

So you recommend that I wear a beard, get charged, court martialed and convicted, and hope to win on appeal for my "right" to .... uh, that's the part I can't figure out.  Which one of my rights is being violated again?

 

[dapaterson]

Sigh.  I left out the 

I have previously stated that I do not advise seeking a court martial to alter the regulations.  It can be a somewhat stressful process (or so I've been told).  (Besides, in reading the court martial transcript and appeal ruling it's clear that Lt(N) Scott clearly informed his chain of command well in advance and they ignored him.)


There are existing rule and regulations that we should follow.  That does not mean that we should blindly close our eyes and ears and ignore change around us that the institution of the CF needs to assess and integrate.  If we see a fault in the CF, should we pass it?


Army.Ca is an unofficial site, not associated with DND or the CF.  It's a place where people with an interest in Canada's military can discuss, debate, argue and socialize about issues facing the military.  This is a discussion/debate/argument about lumberjack commandos beards in the CF.  It's not an official CANFORGEN announcing a ZZ-Top look-alike context for CF members.  It's not anyone passing orders or asserting any military authority or stating "I am making an official statement on behalf of the CF".  It's a gang of people expressing opinions.


As to which of your rights is being violated:  it's that pesky "equality" thing - why should a land-based MARS officer or a vechicle technician be permitted to express themself with a beard (within parameters spelled out in regulation) while you are not?  What Bona Fide Operational Requirement (the test used to determine legitimacy) exists that demonstrates that a beard on your face would impair the operational effectiveness of the CF?

 

[GAP]

Is not the Netherlands allowed to wear beards? I noticed it in the pics of the articles I posted....have they always been able to, or was there a transition? If there was a transition, was it as contentious as it would seem to be in Canada?

just saying....... ;D

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Is not the Netherlands allowed to wear beards? I noticed it in the pics of the articles I posted....have they always been able to, or was there a transition? If there was a transition, was it as contentious as it would seem to be in Canada?

just saying....... ;D

It was a concession won by the draftee's union. Yup, you read that right.