All things beardy-2005 to 2018 (merged)

[Fishbone Jones]

WRT the mask...

Back in my day, beards were only seen on the Pioneers (R.I.P.), certain wives, and on those poor souls who had such bad acne that shaving was nearly suicidal.  Even then, not all the Pioneers wore beards.  Unofficial SOP was that beard-wearers would tote some Vaseline® or similar and slather that all over said beard as soon as they heard "GAS GAS GAS!" or carried the mask pre-greased, to maintain the seal.

I guess that meant that if you wore a beard, you had a ready excuse for that tube of K-Y Jelly™ you had in your grenade/clean socks pouch.

That would certainly make life easier for the chickens! 


What? C'mon, you knew everyone was thinking the same thing ;D

 

[Blackadder1916]

. . .  Unofficial SOP was that beard-wearers would tote some Vaseline® or similar and slather that all over said beard as soon as they heard "GAS GAS GAS!" or carried the mask pre-greased, to maintain the seal.

I guess that meant that if you wore a beard, you had a ready excuse for that tube of K-Y Jelly™[/] you had in your grenade/clean socks pouch.

Vaseline (petroleum jelly) would have been the preferred "jelly" to assist in achieving a mask seal for the bearded.  Being an oil based item it did not dry out as quickly as the other mentioned item, did not freeze as easily and being more viscous (i.e. thicker) provided a better seal.  Vaseline was also often used to lubricate the leather pump cup in Coleman lanterns/stoves and worked better than "K-Y" for the same reasons.  K-Y Jelly (or the brand more commonly bought by the medical folks - "Lubrafax") were water based lubricants that, initially, were developed and marketed for "medical" purposes of inserting things into persons with less (and more easily cleaned) residue - ok, there was also that problem of petroleum jelly lubricants deteriorating latex items.  Based on the proliferation of consumer advertising for "K-Y" products it would seem that anyone who is carrying a tube in his grenade pouch can claim all he wants that it is for NBCD but everyone knows that they shouldn't bend over in his presence.

Though it was (and probably still is) often used to achieve a seal when wearing a mask, it would also interfere with decomtamination drills.  You could "blot, bang and rub" all day long but as long as there was a residue of Vaseline there was an increased possibility that traces of chemical or biological agents remained attached to it.

 

[Pusser]

Your argument is less than logically valid.  If you look at pre-20th Century warfare, things were linear, and like gentlemen, we laid down our arms at night, washed, ate, etc.  Then we got back to the business again the next day.  More or less. 

Flash forward to the trenches of Flanders.  Lice, ticks, muck, scum, etc were the norm in many trenches in that ravished area.  Even under constant shellfire, our forefathers of the CEF shaved daily.  And they used puttees to keep their trousers "bloused".  They probably did so because it made sense to do so.

Just shut up and drag a razor across your face, shower or no shower.

In what way is my argument not valid?  My point was that Victorian era soldiers often wore beards, despite operating in hot dirty climates.  That's a fact and there is plenty of evidence to back it up.  Ticks, lice, mud, scum etc existed long before the trenches of WWI.  This too is well-documented except for a lack of photographs.  Paintings from the era tended to leave out the filthy bits, but it doesn't mean they weren't there.  Even those photographs that did come from the later years tended to be staged and prepared, giving folks a chance to clean up a bit.  Shaving and hygiene have nothing to do with each other.

As for shaving when necessary, I have done it and will do so again I'm sure.  However, I'd like there to be a valid reason and hygiene simply isn't that. 

 

[OldSolduer]

Hygiene is not a reason to shave?

 

[vonGarvin]

I'd like there to be a valid reason and hygiene simply isn't that.

A luxury one is not always able to be afforded, especially when in a job with unlimited liability.  If the chain of command orders you to be clean shaven, that's good enough for me.


As for my previous, re-read what I posted.  Until WW1, most Victorian wars were "gentlemanly" more than not, and night was a time to rest, clean, etc.  A luxury not afforded.  But they also fired muskets and shit, unlike the lasers and hover tanks we have now.... :

 

[midget-boyd91]

Can we compromise on shaving as long as we can wear shorts? 

Have to shave those legs then! Or wax them. Your choice really.

 

[Edward Campbell]

In what way is my argument not valid?  My point was that Victorian era soldiers often wore beards, despite operating in hot dirty climates.  That's a fact and there is plenty of evidence to back it up.  Ticks, lice, mud, scum etc existed long before the trenches of WWI.  This too is well-documented except for a lack of photographs.  Paintings from the era tended to leave out the filthy bits, but it doesn't mean they weren't there.  Even those photographs that did come from the later years tended to be staged and prepared, giving folks a chance to clean up a bit.  Shaving and hygiene have nothing to do with each other.

As for shaving when necessary, I have done it and will do so again I'm sure.  However, I'd like there to be a valid reason and hygiene simply isn't that.

There were pictures:

Colour Sergeant "Willie" McGregor of the Scots Fusilier Guards, photographed in 1856 after the Crimean War, wearing the post-war tunic but with his Crimean beard.
Source: http://www.britishbattles.com/crimean-war/sevastopol.htm

Somehow I managed to stumble across a site with dozens of pictures taken during the Crimean War (1853-1856), over a century and a half ago. This one is typical, except: They all seem to be staring at the dog.
Source: http://sentent.blogspot.com/2009/11/crimean-war-photos.html

Sgt Alexander Campbell, 7th Fusiliers, NW Field Force, 1885
Source:
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.goldiproductions.com/images/boer/people_col/cambell_alex.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.goldiproductions.com/angloboerwarmuseum/Boer70k_hero12_dillon2.html&usg=__zBhvmalG-2j9NCtn6LlxYcUTz7o=&h=378&w=400&sz=22&hl=en&start=0&sig2=BjJ7PQq73aLnUCX0UtBUoA&zoom=1&tbnid=kOkW4iwQZ8bM3M:&tbnh=131&tbnw=130&ei=gxPOTI7uOcGjnAfuwIjRDw&prev=/images%3Fq%3Driel%2Brebellion%2Bphotos%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26biw%3D1479%26bih%3D869%26tbs%3Disch:10,155&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=120&vpy=56&dur=160&hovh=218&hovw=231&tx=110&ty=118&oei=pRHOTO3-PMKenwfx9oHVDw&esq=9&page=1&ndsp=40&ved=1t:429,r:8,s:0&biw=1479&bih=869

Canadians on the veldt in South Africa
Source: http://www.warmuseum.ca/cwm/exhibitions/boer/boerwarhistory_e.shtml

 

[George Wallace]

Let's see, more people died of infection and poor sanitation in the American Civil War and all other wars prior to WWII and Vietnam so I don't see your argument about beards and sanitation as holding much in the way of validity there.  Prior to WW I there were no gas masks, nor a requirement for them, so again I don't see the validity of having a beard in your argument here either.

 

[Jarnhamar]

How is wearing a beard a hygiene issue? (honest question)

If someone doesn't shave how does that increase their chances of disease and scabby face?
I figure shaving in unsanitary environments would lead to a larger chance of infection than shaving every day, no?

 

[mariomike]

How is wearing a beard a hygiene issue? (honest question)

Beards are a hygiene issue for food handlers. They wear beard covers aka "snoods".

 

[vonGarvin]

I think that the question shouldn't be "why should I shave off my beard", but rather "Why should you keep your beard?" 

 

[Pusser]

I think that the question shouldn't be "why should I shave off my beard", but rather "Why should you keep your beard?"

For the same reason I don't shave my head - I prefer the look of having the beard and it is within the confines of the dress regulations.  If there is a bona fide operational reason to shave it off, I have no objection, but that is actually quite rare.  More often than not, there seems to be an anti-beard movement in force.  Interestingly, this is not confined to the military as there are folks in business who hold the same bias.

Being clean shaven does not make you more hygenic.  A filthy person will be filthy with or without a beard.  Food handlers are not necessarily required to wear nets or snoods on their beards.  For that matter, nose hairs can also be an issue, but we don't require food handlers to insert plugs before they enter the kitchen do we?

 

[Michael OLeary]

More often than not, there seems to be an anti-beard movement in force.

I would suggest that it is, more often than not, a "pro-regulation movement." If a beard is allowed by dress regulations (such as pioneers [R.I.P.] and sailors), there's not problem.  Likewise, when a valid and current medical chit produced, no issue. Or when when the member belongs to a recognized religious group that includes facial hair as a requirement, not a problem.  Its the cases on the fringes of clear entitlement that get the raised eyebrows, the questions and the expectation that the member prove their "clear entitlement" to avoid further investigation and, perhaps, an order to shave.

Does this mean that some people aren't just being dicks towards their subordinates? Certainly not, but their existence also doesn't justify a free pass for those who wear beards and seek ways to just get away with it without entitlement.

 

[Neill McKay]

I would suggest that it is, more often than not, a "pro-regulation movement." If a beard is allowed by dress regulations (such as pioneers [R.I.P.] and sailors), there's not problem.  Likewise, when a valid and current medical chit produced, no issue. Or when when the member belongs to a recognized religious group that includes facial hair as a requirement, not a problem.

Perhaps the anti-beard bias lies in the fact that there are limitations on who may wear a beard in the first place, as you describe above, as opposed to purely operational limitations.

Just out of curiosity, why the RIP after pioneers?

 

[dapaterson]

The CF's challenge, of course, is that its regulations on facial hair are utterly unsupportable on any train of logic.  A single challenge to (shudder) a human rights tribunal will have the CF's leadership explaining that beards are a threat and damaging, unless you are a sailor or member of the EME branch.  Somehow, the hand of providence protects them, while anyone else with a beard is an immediate threat to the good order and discipline of the CF.  This is, of course, absurd and unsupportable.

Our sexist, archaic regulations, based on historical nonsense, are overdue for change - if a single, discreet ear stud is aceptable for a soldier who is female, where is the organizational threat if a man wears one?  If long hair in a braid is acceptable for a woman, why not for a man?  If a vehicle technician is operationally fit when wearing a beard, where is the harm in permitting the Armoured officer comanding the tank under repair to wear one too?

Our dress regs are inconsistent with our modern society.  If we truly view people as equal, then it's time to eliminate occupational and gender-based differences in dress and appearance regulations (*)



(*) With the exception of letting grossly overweight men wear maternity clothes to try to hide their girth

 

[Michael OLeary]

Just out of curiosity, why the RIP after pioneers?

Because they are no more.

 

[OldSolduer]

Because they are no more.

Pioneers were taken out of the Infantry Orbat because bigger better minds than my pea brain said that Engineers would always be deployed with Infantry, there fore there was no need for the Pioneers.

 

[Jarnhamar]

The CF's challenge, of course, is that its regulations on facial hair are utterly unsupportable on any train of logic.  A single challenge to (shudder) a human rights tribunal will have the CF's leadership explaining that beards are a threat and damaging, unless you are a sailor or member of the EME branch.  Somehow, the hand of providence protects them, while anyone else with a beard is an immediate threat to the good order and discipline of the CF.  This is, of course, absurd and unsupportable.

Our sexist, archaic regulations, based on historical nonsense, are overdue for change - if a single, discreet ear stud is aceptable for a soldier who is female, where is the organizational threat if a man wears one?  If long hair in a braid is acceptable for a woman, why not for a man?  If a vehicle technician is operationally fit when wearing a beard, where is the harm in permitting the Armoured officer comanding the tank under repair to wear one too?

Our dress regs are inconsistent with our modern society.  If we truly view people as equal, then it's time to eliminate occupational and gender-based differences in dress and appearance regulations (*)



(*) With the exception of letting grossly overweight men wear maternity clothes to try to hide their girth

:nod:

 

[Neill McKay]

Our sexist, archaic regulations, based on historical nonsense, are overdue for change - if a single, discreet ear stud is aceptable for a soldier who is female, where is the organizational threat if a man wears one?  If long hair in a braid is acceptable for a woman, why not for a man?

The answer would be along the lines that the CF projects an image of conservative professionalism and long hair and earrings worn by men are, still, contrary to that.  There's no doubt that they are worn in society but they remain, for the most part, very limited in conservative circles.  A good portion of Canadian society will still see a man with long hair as being somehow disorderly and/or rebellious and/or a hippie and/or any number of other things that are inconsistent with the values that the CF seeks to project.

 

[mariomike]

Food handlers are not necessarily required to wear nets or snoods on their beards. 

Sanitation and Hygiene:
Canadian Food Inspection Agency
Beard covers required for meat, fish and dairy workers:
"3.8.3 Sanitary Practices
(4) Every person who enters or is in any area of a registered establishment where a meat product or an ingredient is exposed shall wear a hair covering and, if appropriate, a beard and moustache covering.":
http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/fssa/meavia/man/ch3/3-8e.shtml

2010
"OTTAWA—A Toronto meat packing plant...
Most other problems spotted by inspectors were less serious, including incomplete records, a cracked conveyor belt, ceiling condensation, peeling paint, an employee not wearing his beard net and “a large chunk of pastrami” stuck in the slicer after the production line had switched over to mortadella.":
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/830221--meat-packing-plant-caught-fudging-best-before-dates

Canadian Food Inspection Agency
2.2.8 Inspection Material and Equipment
"Each inspector must have the following items and use or wear them in the appropriate situations:
Attire:
"hair and (if applicable) beard covers without holes (not mesh/net types) in good condition":
http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/fssa/protra/est/ch2e.shtml

Ontario Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs:
Beard net: A disposable beard net keeps hair from your beard out of fish products.

Employee Hygiene:
"Employees should wear proper hair restraints, such as a hairnet or beard net":
http://www.nr.gov.nl.ca/agric/fsq/Employee_Hygiene.pdf

Reference:
Marriott, N. G. 1994. Principles of Food Sanitation, Third Edition. Chaplan and Hall. New York, NY.
Canadian Food Inspection Agency

US Navy:
"Military personnel with beards for medical reasons and civilian food service personnel must completely cover their beards with a "snood" or beard bag at all times while preparing, handling and serving food or while cleaning and sanitizing food contact surfaces.":
http://www.brooksidepress.org/Products/OperationalMedicine/DATA/operationalmed/Manuals/food/manual/section7/1-55.htm

Being clean shaven does not make you more hygenic. 

"The United States Army, Air Force, and Marine Corps strictly ban beards on the basis of both hygiene and of the necessity of a good seal for gas masks.":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facial_hair_in_the_military#United_States

"U.S. Troops Question Military No-Beard Rules in Afghanistan":
"The military says it has good reasons for the beard ban for most American troops—including hygiene, soldierly discipline, and the ability to get a good seal on gas masks should troops need them.":
http://politics.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2008/11/17/us-troops-question-military-no-beard-rules-in-afghanistan.html

"The United States Army and Marine Corps banned beards on grounds of personal hygiene just before World War One but they are permitted for medical reasons, such as temporary skin irritations if needed.":
http://www.suite101.com/content/the-decline-of-beards-in-warfare-a4495