• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Afghanistan: Why we should be there (or not), how to conduct the mission (or not) & when to leave

Debate and the airing of ideas is a good thing and a fundamental part of our democracy.

Having made the commitment to Afghanistan and its people, the time for debate, IMO is done.
The acid attack, suicide bombing and the murder of innocent people who want nothing more than to live their lives in peace is reason enough to be there.
Not to mention we are there at the invitation of the democratically elected government of Afghanistan.
 
Cognitive-Dissonance said:
That's a shame, I always look forward to good discussions from people with differing opinions.

-C/D

http://www.freecbc.ca/cgi-bin/backtalk/backtalk.cgi/abalone/begin

dileas

tess
 
The latest verbal parsing, courtesy this time of CanWest/National Post:
....In an interview with the Canwest News Service, MacKay hinted that Canadian troops might still have a role to play in Afghanistan after 2011 - the deadline set by Parliament for the end of the current combat mission - and if they do not, the Forces will likely be called to duty elsewhere.  "There are many ways in which we can make contributions beyond 2011. What we've said is the current combat mission, the current configuration, will end in 2011. That's a firm date, confirmed by Parliament and respectful of Parliament," MacKay said.....

Here's exactly what was said in 19 Nov 08's Speech from the Throne, which constitutes "the newly-elected Government’s general program for the parliamentary session that will follow":
....Our Government is transforming Canada’s engagement in Afghanistan to focus on reconstruction and development, and to prepare for the end of our military mission there in 2011....

And from the Conservative Party's platform (.pdf) released during the election:
....Canada's military mission in Afghanistan will cease by the end of 2011....

So, can all three of these statements be true?  It'll be interesting to watch - I'm betting a loonie that CAN troops will still be in AFG after 2011, either:
- from a msn reconfiguration, or
- a change of heart based on changing circumstances between now and 2011.
 
CF in support of a Canadian Development Mission would not be a military mission...
 
Good2Golf said:
CF in support of a Canadian Development Mission would not be a military mission...
...especially if the developers outnumbered the troops (although I doubt how possible THAT would be until the Taliban/bad guys have learned their lessons) - not to mention a pretty different (I would suspect) configuration for the troops.

- edited to finish thought -
 
We'll be there in 2011, we'll be there in 2012, we'll be there in 2015...
 
An interesting perspective from Russia on the mission in Afghanistan:

Retired General Looks Back on Russia's Afghan War

Retired Lt. Gen. Ruslan Aushev says the key to U.S. success would be to help set up a sovereign government. Moscow and Washington have made the same mistakes in their conflicts there, says Ruslan Aushev. He offers advice for the U.S. as it enters the eighth year of war. Retired Lt. Gen. Ruslan Aushev served for five years in Afghanistan during the Soviet Union's nearly decade-long battle with mujahedin there. He was wounded and named a Hero of the Soviet Union. Aushev, 54, who later served as president of the Caucasus republic of Ingushetia, is now chief of the Committee of Afghan Veterans...


http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-aushev23-2008nov23,0,4727945.story
 
Retired Lt. Gen. Ruslan Aushev says the key to U.S. success would be to help set up a sovereign government.

WTF ???  Isn't that what we are doing right now ?

The Government has been formed, elections have been held - new ones to happen in 2009... and we are helping that sovereign government build it's self defense capacity ( ANA & ANP)..... check, check & check.

Obviously Gen Aushev hasn't been paying attention
 
geo said:
WTF ???  Isn't that what we are doing right now ?

The Government has been formed, elections have been held - new ones to happen in 2009... and we are helping that sovereign government build it's self defense capacity ( ANA & ANP)..... check, check & check.

Obviously Gen Aushev hasn't been paying attention

I thought it was a strange response too. I wonder if that's his way to avoid conceding publicly that we're having more success than Russia??
 
Thoughts for after 2011. How about keeping the PRT and a fair number of troops to mentor the ANA. But focus the mission on the Air Force, using the CH-47Ds and also new build CH-47Fs as and when we ever get them, Griffons, Heron UAVs, and C-17s and C-130s (Js as available)  to support our force and allies. Troops at KAF to provide force protection and support the mentors in the field when necessary, with required armour, and some JTF2 too. Probably a maximum of around 1,000 from the Army (about what the Aussies now have). No real idea of Air Force numbers but should be I imagine in the mid-hundreds actually in country (then there's Camp Mirage).

That would be a significant and useful contribution that the CF should be able to implement, and that I think would be welcomed by NATO and President Obama. I don't see why, in principle, the Canadian public could not be convinced to go along.

Moving from Kandahar would be very expensive and forgo all the local knowledge and familiarity acquired.

Mark
Ottawa
 
Was present for a talk by the LFC.  His marching orders say... 2011.  He's asked for details on what we are going to do thereafter - for April 09 timeframe.... expecting answers (anything) sometime around Oct/Nov timeframe.
 
A useful post by Raphael Alexander:

Afghanistan In Perspective
http://unambig.blogspot.com/2008/11/afghanistan-in-perspective.html

Mark
Ottawa

 
And sneaking in under the radar in the midst of all the coalition government chaff....

Second Quarterly Report on Afghanistan Highlights Canada's Progress Towards Its Benchmarks Through 2011
Government of Canada news release, 26 Nov 08
News release - Report (.pdf) - Report (html version)

Today, the Honourable Stockwell Day, Minister of International Trade and Minister for the Asia-Pacific Gateway and Chair of Canada's Cabinet Committee on Afghanistan, released the Government’s second quarterly report on progress made toward achieving Canada's benchmarks through 2011 in Afghanistan.

“It is clear that we face very serious dangers and challenges from a determined enemy in Afghanistan. Despite the fact that the security situation deteriorated during the summer ‘fighting season,’ progress continues to be made there. As highlighted in this report, we are on track to achieve our long-term policy objectives in Afghanistan and build a strong foundation that will make Afghanistan better governed, more secure and more prosperous for its people,” said Minister Day.

Canada’s efforts are guided by six priorities (enable Afghan National Security Forces; strengthen institutional capacity to deliver core services and promote economic growth; provide humanitarian assistance for extremely vulnerable people; enhance border security by facilitating dialogue between Afghan and Pakistani authorities; help advance Afghanistan’s capacity for democratic governance; and, facilitate Afghan-led political reconciliation). Canada is also working on three signature projects: the Dahla Dam project; the construction, repair or expansion of 50 schools in key districts; and the eradication of polio in Afghanistan.

Each of these priorities and signature projects has associated benchmarks to measure how our efforts are progressing. As highlighted in the report, notable achievements to date include:

    * Each of the five Afghan army battalions (kandaks) in Kandahar now has an effective strength of over 70%. They are gaining in both confidence and capability.
    * Through an aggressive demining campaign, 180 square kilometres of land was cleared of mines and made available for community use, including for agriculture. The number of mine victims declined by 19 percent from last year.
    * The goal of the Dahla Dam is to create 10,000 seasonal jobs and provide the basis for expanded agricultural activity in the region. With a more secure and stable water supply, farmers can begin to grow crops that require more water, such as fruit crops. This project will focus on legitimate agriculture development and will include activities such as supporting cropping alternatives, supporting better on-farm water management, promoting increased access to markets, and providing agriculture credit to enable farmers to get their crops in and growing.
    * Preliminary work for the Dahla Dam has been initiated and it is expected that a Canadian contractor will be announced shortly to take the work forward.
    * Over 60 infrastructure projects were completed in key districts between June and September. In addition to providing employment, these projects allow for the increased movement of people and goods.
    * Three new schools have been completed. One of these completions falls within the period of the report released today. There are 14 more schools under construction as part of the effort to build, repair or expand 50 schools in key districts of Kandahar.
    * Education efforts have resulted in 6 million children attending school in Afghanistan today (one-third of them girls), compared to just 700,000 (all of them boys) in schools in 2001.
    * Close to 11,000 Afghans (9,000 women) continued to receive literacy training this past quarter through Canadian support. This number continues to rise.
    * A total of 7 million children have now received vaccinations through our polio eradication program. From January to September 2008, 20 new cases have been reported in the southern region, demonstrating a compelling need for the campaign. Canada is prepared to meet this challenge.

“Despite security challenges in the last few months, Afghans and Canadians are starting to see a difference. Schools are being built, more Afghans are learning to read and write, more children are being vaccinated against polio in Kandahar and throughout Afghanistan, and we are we are laying the necessary groundwork for the repair of the Dahla Dam,” said the Honourable Beverly J. Oda, Minister of International Cooperation and Vice-Chair of the Cabinet Committee on Afghanistan.

The Canadian government committed to having established benchmarks in September 2008. These quarterly reports provide the Government of Canada with a means of reporting frankly and honestly to Canadians on the progress being made.

The second quarterly report on Canada’s Engagement in Afghanistan can be found at http://www.afghanistan.gc.ca/canada-afghanistan/documents/r11_08/index.aspx?

- 30 -
 
From Terry Glavin; read the whole article:
http://www.democratiya.com/review.asp?reviews_id=206

...
It was no great surprise, then, that the postures of the 'anti-war' movement based in the world's rich countries leave the Afghan activists I interviewed utterly mystified. Without exception, the proposition that the 39-nation International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) is merely a tool of western imperialism was greeted with derision. As for the notion that the way forward in Afghanistan involves the withdrawal of foreign troops and some kind of brokered pact with the Taliban, the response was invariably wide-eyed incredulity...

Here in the 'west,' none of us on the liberal left would fail to recognise these brave women and men as our comrades and allies, and if we were to flatter ourselves we might even imagine them to be our Afghan counterparts. On the question of troop withdrawal, their views were varied and nuanced, but their answer was ultimately the same: Stay. And yet this is not the position that the left has been fighting for, in the main, in Europe or North America. It changes by degree from country to country, of course, and the left's positions are varied and nuanced. But in Canada, the left's answer is pretty much unequivocal: Leave [with some. er, nuance in the pursuit of power--see Update].

....now that the conflict in Iraq is rapidly winding down in ways that defy the grim forecasts of anti-war polemicists, the United States, particularly, is intent upon ramping up its efforts in Afghanistan. The war for 'hearts and minds' should be ramped up, too, but the main battles in that war aren't being fought in the mud-walled compounds of bleak Afghan deserts. They're unfolding in the rich countries of the world, where it is already fashionable in liberal-left circles to write off Afghanistan as an irredeemably misbegotten place, a folly, and a lost cause.

This is not a war any of us can afford to lose, and it is a disgrace that it has to be fought within the left, but that's what we're stuck with...

...words can go a long way, and in Afghanistan, the words the people need to hear are these: We will not leave you. We will not betray you. We will not abandon you.

Terry Glavin is an author, a journalist, and an adjunct Professor at the University of British Columbia. He is a founder of the Canadian-Afghanistan Solidarity Committee.
http://afghanistan-canada-solidarity.org/
Visit his blog.
http://transmontanus.blogspot.com/

Mark
Ottawa
 
Very well said, that is a good quotation, Mark.

The sad part is that we still see so many people not understanding what is going on in Afghanistan and what the goal is, people say its oil and such... just sad.
 
Here's a good editorial from the Toronto Sun.
Article Link

Yesterday Canada lost its 100th soldier in Afghanistan since our military mission there began in February, 2002, a few months after the horrors of 9/11.

With that death, as well as the loss of a Canadian diplomat, it’s an appropriate time to ask: “Why are we fighting in Afghanistan?”

The first and most important thing to remember is that our soldiers are there because two successive Canadian governments, one Liberal, the other Conservative, put them there.

They are there in response to a request from the government of Afghanistan and to fulfill Canada’s international obligations to the United Nations and NATO.

They are there because we have seen what happens when failed states become breeding grounds for terrorism and religious fanaticism, as Afghanistan did under the Taliban.

That tyrannical, theocratic government, aided, abetted and provided safe haven to Osama bin Laden and al-Qaida as they plotted and carried out 9/11, in which 24 Canadians died in addition to thousands of other innocent civilians in an unprecedented attack on North American soil.

Our soldiers fight in Afghanistan today to protect us from a similar act of terrorism at home tomorrow.

They fight to prevent the return of a dictatorship in Afghanistan antithetical to everything Canadians stand for — democracy, the rule of law, the equality of women and the protection of children.

When our soldiers are asked why they are in Afghanistan, to a man — and woman — they talk passionately about their desire to help the people of Afghanistan realize a better life.

Not to turn Afghanistan into a carbon copy of Canada, not to impose their will on its people, but to give them a fighting chance to choose their own destiny, not have it forced on them by religious zealots and terrorists.

The mission has been long, hard and the costs terrible with no guarantee of success.

But our soldiers are there because they know, as we should, that the alternative, to abandon Afghanistan now, would be so much worse.
 
A post at The Torch:

Afstan: Who cares?
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2008/12/afstan-who-cares.html

Mark
Ottawa
 
From the comments to the editorial the paper only seems to show comments that are against Canadian participation in Afghanistan. Kinda one-sided IMHO.


tango22a
 
From Mike Blanchfield in The Ottawa Citizen
Article Link

A difficult question: Is it worth it?

If Canada pulls out, what message does that send? If we stay in, are we fighting for the right reasons? Mike Blanchfield talked with several military and political experts in a search for answers.

The message to Canadians remains the same with each tragedy -- the slow hemorrhage of this country's blood and treasure does not outweigh the ultimate gains.

Each time, the prime minister reminds Canadians that the "sacrifice will not be forgotten."

Now with the deaths of 100 Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan -- and two aid workers and a senior diplomat -- many are wondering: Is the sacrifice worth it? Politically incorrect and tinged with pain, this is not easily answered and only begs deeper, more provocative questions.

More on link

I particularly like the last two paragraphs:

"It's the fact that the Canadian Forces have found their raison d'être again. They are a military force; they are not a peacekeeping force," says Mr. Granatstein.

"That is, to my mind, absolutely critical for the survival of the Canadian Forces, and I would say, the long-term survival of the country. Peacekeeping has failed, except in the minds of the Canadian people. And it's important it no longer dominates in the mind of the Canadian soldier."
 
Back
Top